Rome II : Total War

[SirRobin]

Some new city pics today.

http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Total_War...Capital_Cities

[serenka]

Some new city pics today.

http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Total_War...Capital_Cities

oooh Athens looks nice, can't wait to pillage that!

[Sy]

Found this video for anyone worried about the AI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajCeoqNZhuA

the video was posted by SirRobin already

but the ai being able to beat the player in that video doesn't say much about how good it is, actually:

1) that ai was on the hardest difficulty, and like with many other games, these difficulties are often achieved through 'cheating' computer opponents that receive significant boosts to stats, like attack, defense and moral ratings of units in battle, or gold income and recruitment times on the campaign map, etc.
even on normal difficulty, the ai usually has significantly increased troop strength and economy advantages, because that's needed to make it challenging to even mediocre players.

2) the ai in earlier titles was already able to execute simple tactics like using cavalry to chase down skirmishers or to attack unprotected flanks. and, personally, i'm completely fine with it not being able to use really advanced tactics, as the boosts mentioned above can provide a challenge regardless, without being too noticeable.
but the problems i do have with ai is it making really, really stupid mistakes that even a complete beginner player wouldn't make, like suiciding single cavalry units right into the front of your spearmen, while the rest of the enemy army isn't even in missile range, or units not properly responding to orders on walls and in cities. and it will take more than one battle to see if the ai still has that kind of glitches, which is rather likely (even if they might not be the same glitches again).

3) the ai army significantly outnumbered the player's, so even ai vs ai the romans should have clearly won.

4) the player in the video said he is only average, and had rather poor awareness of what's going on in the battle aside from the one spot he was focusing on at that moment (he didn't use the pause function at all, probably because that would bore some viewers who want to see the action of the battle).
most players won't make the mistake of having their cavalry be slaughtered to the last man by a unit of elite spearmen, without even noticing (he only noticed that his riders had been killed after those spearmen then came running into his now completely unprotected flank).


so all in all, from what i've seen in several videos so far, the ai seems to be about the same as it was in shogun 2, but certainly not omgawesome. i haven't noticed any real shortcomings yet, but i'd be surprised if i didn't after playing a few battles myself, especially in settlements.

[SirRobin]

I did post an analysis of the AI on the official board the other day. Should probably have posted it here too.

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The other day, Hard and I got into a debate over the AI changes in Rome 2. Basically my position was that the AI seemed little changed from Shogun 2 and whether or not it has been "much improved" on the backend? If the frontend performance is not visibly better. The backend changes don't actually matter. Since the end user experience is what just about everyone will be seeing, and judging it by.

Hard's position, and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, appeared to be that the backend changes do matter most and that it is not Creative Assembly's fault if the customer does not notice them. It is the customer's fault. For reference I use backend for everything happening "behind the scenes," so to speak. Code, scripts, engine, whatever you prefer to call it. Frontend is everything the end user sees. AI behavior, animations, pretty pictures, etc...

Essentially, the end user experience.

Honestly we are both right to a degree (mine's bigger :P), but where would be the fun in that? Crap like that starts catching on and the next thing you know CA is making Hippie: Total Not War and your generals have traits like Never Shaves Legs and Hugs Trees. So instead my righteous "we've found a witch may we burn her" wrath shall continue unabated! Well, it was abated but now it shall again be un!

I guess the most effective display would be an examination of the AI's behavior in yesterday's video. Hard mentioned that I should look at the video with fresh eyes and I would see more. Actually looking at the video with fresh eyes, first watched it at work, is what inspired my critique in the first place. It was watching it in HD and fullscreen, at home, which made the issues stand out.

I thought about making a custom battle in Shogun 2 with similar units and showing what happened. However, since we only have one Rome 2 battle to compare it too? It probably wouldn't be fair. Until we can compare a number of engagements, its potentially too situational. Not to mention that I'm doing this because I'm bored out of my gourd. If Rome 2 was out I would be playing, not rambling, ranting, raving, raging, or whatever other term you prefer.

Update: After someone mentioned the skirmish and general's charge glitches with previous TW titles, I did test it with a similar force in Shogun 2. I was never able to get the skirmish or general's charge glitches in the custom battles. Though I was able to get them to occur, with very different force compositions, in regular campaign battles.

So, let us face the peril!

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Let's Play - Total War: ROME II - Skirmish vs. A.I. - Macedon vs Rome

Al mentions that this is a defensive battle and that the difficulty is set to "very hard." So I would imagine that most, if not all, of the handicaps, if there are any, placed on the AI's routines have been disabled. You know what? AI is a silly name so I shall call her Zoot instead.

Al has a macadamian force with eleven units. Three skirmishers, three infantry, four cavalry, and one general. Zoot has a roman force with fourteen units. Three skirmishers, eight infantry, two cavalry, and one general. So, at first glance, Al is screwed. Now he could probably win by micromanaging his cavalry. But that would likely require using pause and CA doesn't appear to like that. At least not in demos.

Number three is actually hidden by trees.
You can see it disappear on the minimap before he moves the camera to look at Zoot's troops.

Bet they use it all the time at home. They just hit pause and leave it there. For, like, hours.

Al does okay with unit placement but, again, he is outnumbered over two to one in infantry, in a defensive engagement, on an open plain. So Zoot forming any sort of infantry line would likely quickly envelop his three infantry. Yet Zoot keeps her infantry in a clump.

Zoot responds to Al's cavalry with her own and even appears to send one straight at two of his hidden units on his left flank. Before they are seen.

X-Ray Vision?

Now Zoot's clump begins to disintegrate as her infantry units begin chasing Al's skirmishers. In fact, before running into Al's line, one unit seems to have a change of heart and decides to chase skirmishers instead.

Nice?


Not

So badly does Zoot's clump disintegrate, that Al's right infantry is engaged significantly sooner than his center or left.

What the hell.


Come on Zoot


At least the center is finally engaged

Now we see Zoot's flank occur. You can follow it on the minimap. Al's right flank cavalry has been decimated and is in deep with infantry. Zoot's cavalry, feeling neglected perhaps, looks for another important unit to attack. Which just happens to be Al's general or those juicy skirmishers. Cavalry often tries to go around my line, in Shogun 2, so not sure what the big deal is about it happening here too.

Do you want someone to play with little fella?

Now Al continues to keep his cavalry mostly static, and lets Zoot's infantry, including spear units, engage them. Then Al makes the "reserve" and "fresh" comments. Yet I do not see any units that are not engaged or still trying to get back after routing.

Reserves? What reserves?

In fact, the only unit that might qualify appears to be a skirmisher on Al's right that routed earlier and didn't recover until it had fallen significantly behind. The two units he appears to be referring too are just skirmishers who are, well, skirmishing.

And now the inevitable happens as Zoot's units finish up with Al's cavalry and start closing in on his infantry. Except for those still getting distracted by what is left of Al's skirmishers.

No line, no reserves, no unusual flanking, and except for Zoot's general now acting like a buff bot? No really noticeable change from Dingo's, the AI in Shogun 2, behavior.

---

So, a second round of "fresh" eyes and still no change to the actual observed behavior. No matter what Al's comments might have been trying to imply. Again, I'm not saying Zoot is terrible or Rome 2 is terrible.

I'm saying that Zoot looks an awful lot like Dingo and if her behavior isn't obviously better? Well then calling her "much improved" just isn't accurate for the end users hearing it. Who, again, will be judging Zoot by what they see, not by whatever they're told is going on behind the scenes.

[theturn]

I did post an analysis of the AI on the official board the other day. Should probably have posted it here too.



Zoot responds to Al's cavalry with her own and even appears to send one straight at two of his hidden units on his left flank. Before they are seen.

I enjoyed your post mostly for the comedic elements, but you are wrong here. The game even announced that his flankers in the woods had been spotted and you can see the units lose their "eyes" signifying their hiddeness(?). But then again I'm looking at this from a Rome 1 perspective because I never played shogun 2. The most those units would ever do is chase my cav around endlessly.

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the video was posted by SirRobin already

Yeah I missed it, my bad. That's what I get for looking at this on my ipad. But hey I gave the thread a well deserved bump

but the ai being able to beat the player in that video doesn't say much about how good it is, actually:

I wasn't really saying "o hey great AI" but for my experiences it did things significantly smarter than what I have experienced in the original Rome. For instance when it decided to attack his flankers and only send a small force to keep his main units in check. In R1 I could send out flankers then watch either then entire AI army ignore them or the AI would send its entire army at them. Either way I still gain a flank, this time it took its time marching down the field.

Look I didn't play TWSH2 because I have next to no interest in the time period. I could care less if the AI is the exact same one from that game because I didn't play it. It will be new to me. I'm not sure what percentage of Shogun players will be buying this game, but its not being marketed to them. Its being marketed primarily to players of the original Rome, then to people who enjoy games like this, then to Shogun players. Gamers need to realize that just because they themselves played x game at x time doesn't mean every single person has or should as well. Old gamers spitting in the face of new gamers isn't going to help gaming at all, in fact it will kill it.

This isn't directed at you at all, just something that's been bugging me and it felt like the right time to say it.

[SirRobin]

I enjoyed your post mostly for the comedic elements, but you are wrong here. The game even announced that his flankers in the woods had been spotted and you can see the units lose their "eyes" signifying their hiddeness(?). But then again I'm looking at this from a Rome 1 perspective because I never played shogun 2. The most those units would ever do is chase my cav around endlessly.

Thank you, I try to keep it light since AI debates can be pretty flammable. Now if you compare Rome 2 to Rome 1 by AI? Then the AI has improved a lot. Then again I would expect it too. Rome 1 came out back in 2004. Major title wise we've had Medieval 2, Empire, and Shogun 2 since the first Rome. They've had plenty of patches, dlc's, xpacs, and mods, mixed in among those three too.

Plenty of time, even through just trial and error, to see what works and what doesn't. By Shogun 2, especially by Fall of the Samurai, I frequently had AI cavalry trying to go around the flanks of my line. They'll usually mass on one side too, giving its flank extra punch. So if you compare it with Rome 1's AI then Rome 2 certainly is a big improvement but I would be genuinely shocked, and rather seriously miffed, if it wasn't.

However, compared to Shogun 2? Apparently not so much. I certainly wouldn't use the terms "much improved," nor "completely overhauled."

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New video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZthalx7bnQ



- - - Updated - - -

I've been fighting on land in Total War since 2000(?). Honestly those battles have started getting a bit stale for me. Only had naval battles since 2009 and, to be honest, the ones in vanilla Shogun 2 kinda sucked. So hoping the naval combat, "ramming speed!" in Rome 2 is as at least as fun as it was in Empire and Fall.

Should get plenty of opportunities too reme it too, with my favorite faction being Carthage.

[sinilaid]

Looks a lot better than vanilla Shogun 2 naval combat tbh. Tho the way the ship brakes in half from the middle when hit from the front is a bit odd but other than that, looks great.

[Tierbook]

Looks a lot better than vanilla Shogun 2 naval combat tbh. Tho the way the ship brakes in half from the middle when hit from the front is a bit odd but other than that, looks great.

its becaues the momentum at the back of the little ship is still moving forward while the front is moving backwards is simply buckles under the stress

[steveyboy]

Can't wait for this game, just hope they slow the combat down a bit more or a mod comes out to slow it down a bit.

[serenka]

New battle video.

something i saw on that video, at the end when he lost, why was there no scoreboard? where it tells you how many kills each unit got and stuff?

[Nirawen]

something i saw on that video, at the end when he lost, why was there no scoreboard? where it tells you how many kills each unit got and stuff?

Doesn't seem like a finished end-game screen really, there's no option to continue (guessing that's what the bottom box will be). Possible it was played on a stripped-down dev build or something.

[Airlick]

something i saw on that video, at the end when he lost, why was there no scoreboard? where it tells you how many kills each unit got and stuff?

Since Empire (I think in Medieval 2 the scoreboard still appeared straight after the battle) onward, the scoreboard appears at the campaign map after you quit the battle.

[fakaroonie]

I'm planning to pre order this game. It's 55 Euros atm. Is this the final price ? cause i've heard a rumor of a price drop, or it already happened? Also, how long will the pre order service will be active? :S

[serenka]

Since Empire (I think in Medieval 2 the scoreboard still appeared straight after the battle) onward, the scoreboard appears at the campaign map after you quit the battle.

i assumed that was a custom battle not a campaign one. so they could set it up how they wanted.

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I'm planning to pre order this game. It's 55 Euros atm. Is this the final price ? cause i've heard a rumor of a price drop, or it already happened? Also, how long will the pre order service will be active? :S

pre-order + bonus should be active until shortly before release, and i don't think the price is going to drop much, its been £29.99 on steam for a while, don't think it will go lower until christmas sale.

55euro sounds pretty high though, where are you seeing that price?

[Underverse]

Oh wow that naval battle is awesome

[serenka]

Oh wow that naval battle is awesome

they look a lot better than empire ones! hate naval battles on there!

[Nerraw]

55euro sounds pretty high though, where are you seeing that price?

It's unfortunately the standard price for this game for the non-British. I was lucky to get it pre-ordered on GMG in May with a 25%-off voucher. Otherwise I would have waited for a price drop.

[SirRobin]

New rally point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwWrDtkJdTs



They appear to have some rather attractive womens working at CA.

[Chrysia]

New rally point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwWrDtkJdTs

[video=youtube;fwWrDtkJdTs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwWrDtkJdTs[/vieo]

They appear to have some rather attractive womens working at CA.

I like the variety of animations showcased. But...phalanxes work like phalanxes, wow, who would've thought it?

The team seem to be enjoying themselves, though, and that's usually a good sign.

[Deleted]

I like the variety of animations showcased. But...phalanxes work like phalanxes, wow, who would've thought it?

The team seem to be enjoying themselves, though, and that's usually a good sign.

They work like the yari walls from Shogun 2, which were actually very good but nobody ever used them.

Oda master race