Official Warlock Green Fire thread [spoilers]

[Deleted]

what you are saying about the encounter's mechanics is outright wrong Szarala. there is really no RNG involved when you are playing it correctly, no gambling whatsoever. this strengthens me in what I said before, pretty sure you can't beat the encounter yourself and are bitter now that blizzard made an "unfair" encounter and turn this frustration into "but blizzard is stupid anyway" arguments now.
also, if you make it out like you do, then of course it's not a warlock specific encounter. you can drag that even further by saying "lol you need a stun? all classes have stuns! you need dots? lol shadow priests totally have dots". it's just a stupid way to put it though.
again, why is it that for over 10 pages different people told you that they liked the encounter and think it's a decent test of warlock skills and you keep arguing against it? is there a point where you will see that you are in the wrong, or will you keep this up for another 20 pages?

[Deleted]

I am really happy to see that people with 510/520 ilevel gear are struggling with this fight to get green fire
Blizzard did a fine job tuning this fight.

If someone is struggling with an ilvl of 520, it's definitely not because of the fight's difficulty.

[Szarala]

Because having a pet is part of your class?

...

Ye a lot of the encounter is pet control, its something that i am glad blizzard done because in choosing this class you are opting into 'having a pet' if you suck at pet control for w/e reason then go practice the encounter a bit and it may come to you a bit more naturally.

Yanno, I originally rolled way back at launch because when deciding on a class, under warlock the description was about a dark support class that happened to have demons. Sounded good to me. Yeah, things change (the whole "support class" bit went out the window almost immediately), but really pets haven't felt like a positive addition to the class since Wrath. If anything they're an extra hassle to me; an attention tax for having the gall to play a warlock. I lost interest in warlock (and by extension, WoW itself) shortly after Cata launched and when a friend suggested I give it another chance for MoP, I was -ecstatic- to see things like GoSac and KJC, as they made the class actually fun for me to play again.

The problem with what you are doing here szarala is that you are trying to maintain the last encounter is bad, 99% of people disagree with you because it does give some challenge to players which you really dont get anywhere else in wow atm (maybe heroic raiding when you are undergeared but that soon ends).

"Something I can actually wipe on a hundred times! Finally! WHOO!" Not my idea of fun. I get that some people DO like that. That's not my beef. I don't like that this type of encounter culminates this particular questline and I think the encounter itself is "challenging" for the wrong reasons and in ways that make the encounter itself, pass or fail, an extremely un-enjoyable experience. This is a personal opinion and others DO like this sort of thing. Again though, this isn't the argument.

But dont come here and tell people that its a badly designed encounter, they made it feel extremely warlock themed and thats the important part, not which class's could do it with there current toolkit, seen as all the class's are practically immortal in solo content now.

OK, instead of a pit lord it's an earth elemental. The encounter is now shaman themed. Or an undead.. it's now DK themed. Or a giant boar.. hunter themed now. Or...

[jonte912]

I don't like how the quest chain phases stuff such as the Black Temple raid so you can't enter it normally. Even after you finish it. Why would I ever want to fight the boss again after I got my green fire and completed the quest chain.

you enter the black temple raid at a crack in the wall to the right, not the main entrance

[rhorle]

again, why is it that for over 10 pages different people told you that they liked the encounter and think it's a decent test of warlock skills and you keep arguing against it? is there a point where you will see that you are in the wrong, or will you keep this up for another 20 pages?

This is where you and others keep losing any credibility. Just because a lot of people think something doesn't make them inherently correct. If every warlock guide said for you to take a succubus for top dps, but the fel hunter actually gives top dps, who would be correct? The one who goes with the Majority, or the one who goes with the minority?

Is it a challenge? Yes. Is it a test of warlock skills? Not really because it is a debuff, aggro, and LoS fight. Those aren't warlock skills but general raiding skills. It could have been so much more then a warlock themed raid skill check. If I wanted that I'd go do Heroic Modes where they are actual challenges. The only real challenge in this fight though is if you use the right gimmick at the right time.

[wonderlust]

People are really, really over-thinking and over-analyzing this fight. It's not meant to be the pinnacle of the Warlock experience, nor is it the ultimate, perfectly designed test to deem someone worthy of being a Warlock.

It's just an encounter designed to add a measure of difficulty to a permanent, long sought-after cosmetic effect.

I think it's time to step away and take a break, instead of letting frustration get a hold of your thoughts and feelings.

[Prag]

People are really, really over-thinking and over-analyzing this fight. It's not meant to be the pinnacle of the Warlock experience, nor is it the ultimate, perfectly designed test to deem someone worthy of being a Warlock.

It's just an encounter designed to add a measure of difficulty to a permanent, long sought-after cosmetic effect.

I think it's time to step away and take a break, instead of letting frustration get a hold of your thoughts and feelings.

I agree with you, but that's not how the internet works at all.

[Deleted]

Except we have imps, doomguards, chaos bolt, cataclysm, felhunters, pit lord, big fuck off green demon, shit tons of room for clever use of mechanics, its warlock themed, stop thinking like an idiot and honestly quit complaining about it and get good enough to do it.

(its also in black temple. . .)

[Szarala]

People are really, really over-thinking and over-analyzing this fight. It's not meant to be the pinnacle of the Warlock experience, nor is it the ultimate, perfectly designed test to deem someone worthy of being a Warlock.

..because people are saying it IS is the whole argument

[Deleted]

There is no arguement, you either like it or you dont, no one should be trying to convince others whether or not they should like the encounter, but IMO.

The theme of it is correct, lots of demon appearances, location, boss, arena platform

The difficulty is adequate for anyone with 520 item level and average levels of player ability

The reward is good becuase its purely cosmetic

The encounter is designed well because it can be done in any spec

All of this together is why i personally like it, i also dont have a problem with keybinding a few pet abilities in order to add a bit of extra challenge to the usual 4 - 5 buttons.

[Szarala]

There is no arguement, you either like it or you dont, no one should be trying to convince others whether or not they should like the encounter, but IMO.

once again, louder for those in the back, it's not about me liking it. It's about people calling it the ultimate warlock encounter, which I take issue with.

[Deleted]

They could have made it more like a platformer and required us to do certain tasks. Enslave demons, use eye of kilrogg somehow, fear, banish, use gateways to get to different platforms. Have all of our demons help us like a hunters stampede.

Well, but you do use Eye of Kilrogg earlier in the quest chain. I think they played on most of our abilities throughout the chain.

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I actually agree that it's not all that special of a fight.

Sure it's warlock specific, but in the most superficial way possible. It's like the boss is all "Watch as I use this amazing ability... that you just happen to have the perfect counter to." I didn't find anything about it challenging from a how-to-approach-it perspective. I knew exactly how to counter every ability after seeing it once and maybe reading the tooltip. It was all a matter of hitting my buttons in the right order and cobbling together a few macros. I killed it after about 8 pulls, by which time I had the timing down as to be able to anticipate everything as it came.

I'm not hating on the fight and I don't have an answer for how to design a better class specific encounter, but I didn't find it to be anything special in the least. The best I can say is that at least it seemed to be more or less bug free and fairly well tuned (granted I didn't bother with it until recently so I don't know how it was when it was first release but I hear it had some issues).

Well, if you're a raider and you've got an ilvl of 500+ then sure it isn't that difficult and you should be able to complete it after seeing the different abilties and giving it a few tries. But the lower your ilvl, the more challenging it becomes. The lower your ilvl, the more strictly you need to pay attention to abilities and rotate them wisely, the gap for error becomes much much smaller.

I think it can be completed with ilvl 460 as well, but it would be quite hard. Also, someone stated it has been completed in ilvl 380 gear... I just don't believe it. You can't DPS down the Imps or Felhunters fast enough with that kind of gear. Can anyone back this up? Because I would like to see it.

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once again, louder for those in the back, it's not about me liking it. It's about people calling it the ultimate warlock encounter, which I take issue with.

Well, then what is the ultimate Warlock encounter in your opinion? I can't recall anything better. The epic mount quest back in the day was no way near as challenging as this.

[Deleted]

Well, then what is the ultimate Warlock encounter in your opinion? I can't recall anything better. The epic mount quest back in the day was no way near as challenging as this.

Definetly the question at hand.

Please let szarala answer this, and dont count only the last fight because the entire 'encounter' is the quest chain.

[Szarala]

Definetly the question at hand.

Please let szarala answer this, and dont count only the last fight because the entire 'encounter' is the quest chain.

I've said several times that I'm referring to Kanrethad specifically and that I thought the Black Temple run (except for the looting part) was well done.

[Aeula]

you enter the black temple raid at a crack in the wall to the right, not the main entrance

It wont let you enter through the crack due to phasing.

[Deleted]

Ok, so what is the (to quote you) 'the ultimate warlock encounter' seen as thats the reason your creating such a hassle here.

You cant complain about the encounter being possible by other class's when the theme of it is blatently warlock based for the reasons i stated above (and everyone can solo like a baws now).

[Delekii]

Szarala is 100% correct in terms of mechanics; the fight represents a great many aspects of warlock that have almost no place in day-to-day operations.

It's like creating a tricks track for racecar drivers and saying that the guy who can land his jumps and drive on two wheels is the pinnacle of race-car driving; in reality, the two are very different skillsets that happen to use the same equipment.

There are a great many aspects to this fight that the vast, vast, VAST majority of warlocks (and players in general) probably don't even consider before entering the fight (or reading up on it, in most cases). The very simplest and most pervasive example is the threat drop from the gate debuff; without the existence of this fight, at a guess 99% of warlocks would happily go about their business not knowing that it works that way, because it simply doesn't matter in almost any real-world application.

The fight requires quite a high level of technical capability in terms of any given pve encounter in the game (applying the right solution to the right problem with the right timing), and it is thematically perfect for the warlock. Assuming you don't grossly overgear the fight you have to be a reasonably good player to get green fire, but calling it the "pinnacle of being a warlock" is a farce. The pinnacle of warlocks are on the cutting edge of raiding progression and in the highest of arena ratings and rated BG play, where abilities that are part of the practical toolset of the warlock, and not gimmick ability bloat or secondary effects to what is a primary purpose, are put to use.

The "ultimate warlock encounter" is any given difficult PvE fight that tests the pinnacle of players, or any PvP fight at the highest of ratings, probably against whatever is seen as a counter-comp. You can't put the warlock in a vaccuum, arbitrarily assign worth to abilities that had none prior, and take that to increase the "worth" of the fight. Trust me, if I can do this fight at 470ish ilvl like I did, it does not represent the pinnacle of warlocks, because I suck at warlock. I am, however, great at reading instructions, following timers, writing macros, and putting appropriate buttons on appropriate hotkeys.

[Szarala]

I am, however, great at reading instructions, following timers, writing macros, and putting appropriate buttons on appropriate hotkeys.

Conversely, I am horrible at all that (aside from the instruction part).

My main problem with this fight is that I'm getting overwhelmed keeping track of everything: things to dispel, threat, relative position and encounter specific timers in addition to my own dots, which takes up a decent amount of my attention any other given time. I use the stock UI with no addons and do not use macros or any keybinds aside from the number row. Yes, I'm well aware that this is to my detriment, especially for this encounter, but I've tried using macros and special keybinds before, and that's the point where the game -in general- stops being -fun- for me. This is all personal and an entirely different debate/indictment of my play and not the 'argument' at hand.

No, there is no current encounter in the game, nor one that really stands out in memory that is a better warlock-tailored encounter. However, just because there isn't something out there that's -better-, doesn't mean that this one is -good- (in terms of it being warlock-specific). I, and others, have given examples of what would have made the fight a better example of a warlock-specific one.

[Grizelda]

The fact that there was no place for us to use Unending Breath ruined everything. Clearly that is our signature ability.

[Supernex]

The fact that there was no place for us to use Unending Breath ruined everything. Clearly that is our signature ability.

Agreed. THAT would've made this encounter truly the pinnacle. /signed

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No, there is no current encounter in the game, nor one that really stands out in memory that is a better warlock-tailored encounter. However, just because there isn't something out there that's -better-, doesn't mean that this one is -good- (in terms of it being warlock-specific).

I was never meaning to say that there couldn't be something better designed, but rather that there isn't something better in-game, (IMO), thus by default making it "ultimate" (though I don't believe I actually ever used that term, but I could be mistaken). Hence why I was asking you to point to a better encounter, not imagine one. Heck, I have quite a bit of ideas that I think can make the class/game/etc better, but that doesn't weigh into my argument in this case. Apologies for my end of the miscommunication.