Why don't people want combo points on the player?

[Siri]

It's a QoL improvements especially with the addition of the glyph of redirect. Think of a fight like Horridon which has adds spawning fairly quickly which gives rogues the possibility of having to redirect every 10 seconds or possibly even sooner and losing CP still if a mob gets smashed too fast.

This was exactly my point, this is not an argument that speaks for a QoL change, this is an argument that says you don't perform well with frequent target swaps and you want to be better at it. I really think you should just be happy with a 10s CD on Redirect, a change I don't even agree should go live.

Having to hit redirect every ~10 seconds compared to just having CP on the rogue is a huge QoL issues.

I guess this is, it's just not a very good one. It's basically the equivalent of having to recast X spell because you change target, most classes do it. I think the real QoL issue is that you can't redirect off mobs that disappear.

[Linneth]

People call it asking for a QoL improvement but the only argument in this thread for it being so is that CPs are messy on AoE.

I would like to hear your take on Redirect and despawning/transforming/amagedidit adds/bosses on many encounters, because that's a direct limitation of the Combo System and a flaw on how Redirect functions (and Marked for Death CD reset, for that matter). Perhaps a fix to this issue would change my mind about Combo Points on the Rogue.

This was exactly my point, this is not an argument that speaks for a QoL change, this is an argument that says you don't perform well with frequent target swaps and you want to be better at it. I really think you should just be happy with a 10s CD on Redirect, a change I don't even agree should go live.

Versatility and now this Glyph are the main reason why this topic even exists. They're beating around the bush, and that's my problem with it.

Also, I myself don't have any problem with performing target swaps at all, if you know what you're doing you can avoid wasting Combo Points most of the time. That doesn't change the fact that I'm not happy with because it's clunky and outdated, in my opinion. This clunkiness has been exacerbated by the implementation of Anticipation and Combo Points on AoE.

I guess this is, it's just not a very good one. It's basically the equivalent of having to recast X spell because you change target, most classes do it. I think the real QoL issue is that you can't redirect off mobs that disappear.

I can't pull off a Rupture out of my arse even if Combo Points stack on the Rogue, that's the ramp-up time. Redirect is just a tedious band-aid fix to try to address our target-swapping problems, and it is a very bad fix at that.

[l33t]

Because that is the way Blizzard manage outdated classes in their game.
When they give rogue combopoints as a part of new class mechanics to paladins and monks, noone cried about homogenization. Now, when it is time to get rid of stupid, outdated mechanics, it all of a sudden became a homogenization issue. People do want combo points on a rogue, and they wanted it before holy power even existed, by the way. Too bad Blizzard don't give a fuck about everything that is not mage or lock nowadays.

[Siri]

I would like to hear your take on Redirect and despawning/transforming/amagedidit adds/bosses on many encounters, because that's a direct limitation of the Combo System and a flaw on how Redirect functions (and Marked for Death CD reset, for that matter). Perhaps a fix to this issue would change my mind about Combo Points on the Rogue.

That's a limitation placed on redirect, not a direct limitation of the combo point system. Also, let's be honest, if the combo points were on the rogue MfD cooldown reset would still be handled the way it is now so there wouldn't be any change there. Plus, I already said this:

I think the real QoL issue is that you can't redirect off mobs that disappear.

I can't pull off a Rupture out of my arse even if Combo Points stack on the Rogue, that's the ramp-up time. Redirect is just a tedious band-aid fix to try to address our target-swapping problems, and it is a very bad fix at that.

You're far from the only class to not dot up targets with long duration dots if they aren't going to be alive for a while.

[Linneth]

You're far from the only class to not dot up targets with long duration dots if they aren't going to be alive for a while.

I was talking that even if Combo Points are on the Rogue, I won't always have Combo Points for every freaking add that appears, because you know, Combo Points are still generated by Energy-consuming abilities (ramp-up, finisher, unleash the power!), so I need to plan up for it.

Also, Redirect's limitation is because of Combo Points on the target; they no longer exist, so you cannot Redirect them. How can this be a Redirect issue but not of the Combo Points system as a whole?

[Johnkie]

Because it's how the class works and what it's balanced away. With Redirect it really makes no difference anyway.

There's no reason to change it really.

what this guy said.

[Alvito]

I think combopoints are still on the target because Blizzard is stubborn and everyone will cry "CLASSSS HOMOGENENINANZINZAITONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" when in reality it doesn't change how Rogue plays.

If it doesn't change it then why do it? Clearly it does change it, they would have to rebalance them to make up for them being able to just switch and knock out a 5 CP finisher. This would be a huge change to how they play in pvp. I'm not saying don't do it, but don't say it makes no difference when it clearly does.

[Warstar]

That's a limitation placed on redirect, not a direct limitation of the combo point system. Also, let's be honest, if the combo points were on the rogue MfD cooldown reset would still be handled the way it is now so there wouldn't be any change there. Plus, I already said this:





You're far from the only class to not dot up targets with long duration dots if they aren't going to be alive for a while.

Fact is that with how assassination/sub works with rupture is that currently you have to rupture a target even if it's going to die before you get the full use out of rupture. The only difference is combat which doesn't get much use at all out of rupture. Hell if a mob is going to die within ~2 seconds and I have 2 cp up on the target I'd get more out of throwing up a small rupture for the energy regen than the actual damage which is pretty different than any other dot out there.

[Siri]

I was talking that even if Combo Points are on the Rogue, I won't always have Combo Points for every freaking add that appears, because you know, Combo Points are still generated by Energy-consuming abilities (ramp-up, finisher, unleash the power!), so I need to plan up for it.

Sorry, I misunderstood, but in that case the comment is fairly irrelevant to the discussion.

Also, Redirect's limitation is because of Combo Points on the target; they no longer exist, so you cannot Redirect them. How can this be a Redirect issue but not of the Combo Points system as a whole?

I don't consider it a problem with the combo point system as a whole because it worked just fine previously with the exact same combo point system. The corpses disappear because they don't want them lying around, previously they'd stay for a couple of seconds before despawning. This should be solved by reverting to the previous solution because it worked just fine. This is really not a reason to move the CPs to the rogue.

Fact is that with how assassination/sub works with rupture is that currently you have to rupture a target even if it's going to die before you get the full use out of rupture. The only difference is combat which doesn't get much use at all out of rupture. Hell if a mob is going to die within ~2 seconds and I have 2 cp up on the target I'd get more out of throwing up a small rupture for the energy regen than the actual damage which is pretty different than any other dot out there.

True but when the target dies Assassination gets some energy back and come 5.4 Sub can opt to get the Sanguinary Vein buff from the Hemo bleed instead.

[Linneth]

I don't consider it a problem with the combo point system as a whole because it worked just fine previously with the exact same combo point system. The corpses disappear because they don't want them lying around, previously they'd stay for a couple of seconds before despawning. This should be solved by reverting to the previous solution because it worked just fine. This is really not a reason to move the CPs to the rogue.

For the sake of argument, I thought of a way to "solve" Redirect and AoE problems while keeping current swapping limitations. Basically, Combo Points would be stored on the Rogue but behave like Cataclysm's version of Bandit's Guile: if you attack another target with a combo generator, your previous combo points fade. Using Redirect would change your "current target", allowing you to attack without losing your Combo Points.

Sorry, I misunderstood, but in that case the comment is fairly irrelevant to the discussion.

You said that most classes have to apply X spell to successfully swap targets (this is called ramp-up time). Be it on the Rogue or not, Combo Points are a ramp-up mechanic by themselves.

[Siri]

For the sake of argument, I thought of a way to "solve" Redirect and AoE problems while keeping current swapping limitations. Basically, Combo Points would be stored on the Rogue but behave like Cataclysm's version of Bandit's Guile: if you attack another target with a combo generator, your previous combo points fade. Using Redirect would change your "current target", allowing you to attack without losing your Combo Points.

I'm assuming this would also exclude the use of single-target finishers on targets other than the one you built the CPs on, if so I have no issues with this fix to Redirect/AoE.

[Linneth]

I'm assuming this would also exclude the use of single-target finishers on targets other than the one you built the CPs on, if so I have no issues with this fix to Redirect/AoE.

Pretty much, let's put it this way:

-From a UI perspective, Combo Points would show all the time, but they would be colored gray if not targeting your "Combo Point target".

-Server-side, your last target would have a hidden FLAG that allows the use of targeted finishers and the creation of additional combo points. Using Redirect generates that hidden FLAG on the new target, deleting the previous hidden FLAG. If you change a target without using Redirect, performing any combo builders would apply the hidden FLAG to the new target AND wipe out any Combo Point previously generated (Anticipation excluded).

[Warstar]

With CP rogues have a ramp up time to their ramp up time. The rogue opener from an assassination point of view requires: putting up, SnD, putting up rupture, and then envenoming to refresh SnD and put up envenom that's 12 cp to get up to speed that takes up to 6 mutilates to get going. Granted you could get it up faster with crits and dispatch procs but I'm sure everyone has had fights where you open and the stars align and everything procs and you're going like a champ compared to other fights where nothing procs and it takes forever and it just sucks.

So, even if you had CP on the rogue instead of the target say a rogue would target swap you still have two things to effectively ramp up. Even adding marked for death would help but remember you don't always finish with 5 cp left it just helps with the random strays usually so even with marked for death and cp on the rogue there are still going to be plenty of times where the rogue swaps to a new target with 0 cp.

In PvP with the glyph and a 10 second CD on redirect there's absolutely no reason that you could say that CP on the rogue would be over powered since the biggest reason has been burst or kidney shot.

With KS on a 20 second CD redirect will be up every time you need to KS since it only has a 10 second CD.

Second with burst both envenom and evis don't really hit that hard. Evis gets a big buff with sub especially but you need to get sanguinary veins up as well as find weakness both which take at least 2 globals and add CP to the target. Just swapping to a target if you vanish or get out of combat for a burst with premed, your opener, and hemo you build 5 points just getting ready to burst anyways. And outside that evis just doesn't hit that hard. I guess if you were at 5% health and a rogue swapped to 5 pt. evis you that'd be an easier kill than using backstab but no the "burst" aspect of a 5 pt. finisher with no ramp up/CDs just isn't that big. It's nothing like 5.0 when a warrior could build up a 5 point taste for blood and target swap/pop CDs and one shot someone which is how a lot of people seem to be making it out to be.

[Siri]

Pretty much, let's put it this way:
-cut-

This works.

With CP rogues have a ramp up time to their ramp up time. The rogue opener from an assassination point of view requires: putting up, SnD, putting up rupture, and then envenoming to refresh SnD and put up envenom that's 12 cp to get up to speed that takes up to 6 mutilates to get going. Granted you could get it up faster with crits and dispatch procs but I'm sure everyone has had fights where you open and the stars align and everything procs and you're going like a champ compared to other fights where nothing procs and it takes forever and it just sucks.

So, even if you had CP on the rogue instead of the target say a rogue would target swap you still have two things to effectively ramp up. Even adding marked for death would help but remember you don't always finish with 5 cp left it just helps with the random strays usually so even with marked for death and cp on the rogue there are still going to be plenty of times where the rogue swaps to a new target with 0 cp.

<pvp stuff>

Last I checked you don't apply either the initial Rupture or the initial SnD with 5 CPs so it wouldn't take 12 CPs. Second, this wouldn't change at all if you had CPs on the rogue at all times, it would be exactly the same. It would only affect target swaps, a situation where you already have a full duration SnD running. Your ramp-up consists of a rupture which takes 1 second to apply to the target (0s - redirect/mutilate, 1s - rupture)

As for PvP, there's a huge difference between having 1 second to react (the GCD that Redirect uses) accompanied by an animation and having 0 seconds to react.

[NeverStop]

Just take Redirect off the GCD, but casting Redirect puts a 1 sec CD on Kidney Shot / Deadly Throw / whatever ability ppl QQ about in pvp. Easy fix.

[Mormolyce]

People don't? I thought every Rogue did, it's just Blizzard that isn't keen on the idea.

It make more sense lore wise for combo points to be on the target.

Well I think you mean flavour wise rather than lore wise, but okay.

Because if they were on the player it would be holy power.

Homogenization is bad.

This is nonsense though, did making Warlock shards into a UI element make them "holy power"? Should they still have to fill their bags with shards like the old days to avoid "homogenization"?

CPs on the Rogue is just an outdated system. I know Blizzard doesn't like the idea of changing that core concept of Rogues, but I disagree. I don't think it adds anything significant to Rogue flavour. If they're concerned about that they should just add more "Rogueyness" to the Rogue ability set to compensate.

- - - Updated - - -

If it doesn't change it then why do it? Clearly it does change it, they would have to rebalance them to make up for them being able to just switch and knock out a 5 CP finisher. This would be a huge change to how they play in pvp. I'm not saying don't do it, but don't say it makes no difference when it clearly does.

Doesn't change rotation.

Does remove needless awkwardness.

[Koji2k11]

idk why ppl think something would change they would have to adjust 2-3 skills thats not much imo for this huge QOL improvment

[Verain]

Combo Points are inherently different from Chi/Holy Power, not because one is on the target and the others are on the user but because the latter are used purely for damage or healing and the former is also used for utility.

Wait, what?

Combo points on live do the following:
Damage (eviscerate/envenom, rupture, crimson tempest)
Healing (recuperate)
Utility (kidney shot)

Hrm. Ok, checks out so far, if you consider the full list of "utility" to be "shit other classes don't even fuck with their resources for". I mean, remember that you can press hammer of justice, shockwave, asphixiate, ursol's whatever, deep freeze, shadowfury, leg sweep, intimidate, capacitor totem, and whatever the hell else without dorking up your resources, whatever they are per spec- and sometimes those moves deal damage. And while kidney's cooldown is pretty decent- 20 seconds (anything below 25 seconds is mostly wasted on single target because of DR)- it still doesn't jive as a resource. I mean, if I have whole bunch of combo points, I can't stun everyone forever, but I COULD eviscerate them lots.

Also you have to count recuperate as healing. Currently it's total trash, but in 5.4 it kinda will count again maybe? It will be not too far off from the version we saw in Cata. Still weaker, of course- and the battle fatigue buff mostly destroys what buff was intended- but you might see a rogue use it ever. The bigger problem isn't how much it heals- it's that the healing is limited to over time. It's not like a rogue being tunneled has an option to use all his combo points as heals or anything else.


Ok, but.... what about chi?

Damage (tiger palm, blackout kick, other things)
Healing (chi wave, chi burst, zen sphere)
Utility (fists of fury)

Oh, wait, I'm sorry- chi wave, chi burst, and zen sphere USED to cost chi. They buffed monks by removing the cost. Does that somehow make it some entirely different thing, that they don't have to spend resource? I mean, given that you can't double recuperate or anything, just as zen sphere has a cooldown.


Ok, well, holy power.

Damage (templar's verdict, divine storm)
Healing (word of glory)
Utility (fist of justice)

Waaaait. Fist of justice doesn't cost holy power!


These resources sound BETTER than combo points, eh? I mean, the classes still have those things, but they just get them for no cost. Remember, putting recuperate on combo points doesn't allow you to heal for any more- if I have 15 combo points to spend on recuperate, I can only spend 5- the other 10 have to do something else. Likewise, when I press kidney I sure as hell lose dps, but I can't just turn and kidney another dude with 5 more combo points- it still has a cooldown.

While there is a little truth to statements such as "10 seconds in so short anyway", "We can do that with Redirect already" and "We can do that with Marked for Death already" there is still a huge difference between doing whatever you want whenever you want on the fly and spending first one global on Redirect (or a 1 min CD) and then another on Deadly Throw/Kidney Shot.

That difference is not huge. It is present, though. Remember Marked for Death isn't on a global, of course. Right now, kidney shot is the most choreographed stun in the game, and the only rogue spec with meaningful rep is the one that actually CAN stun you with no warning (sub), just like all the other classes can do.

Personally I like how combo points work and, frankly, I don't think the redirect glyph is a good design decision.

Why? What harm do you think will come from the redirect glyph change? I'd like a prediction, to be honest, because I'm pretty sure this next patch will prove you wrong.

[Alvito]

People don't? I thought every Rogue did, it's just Blizzard that isn't keen on the idea.



Well I think you mean flavour wise rather than lore wise, but okay.



This is nonsense though, did making Warlock shards into a UI element make them "holy power"? Should they still have to fill their bags with shards like the old days to avoid "homogenization"?

CPs on the Rogue is just an outdated system. I know Blizzard doesn't like the idea of changing that core concept of Rogues, but I disagree. I don't think it adds anything significant to Rogue flavour. If they're concerned about that they should just add more "Rogueyness" to the Rogue ability set to compensate.

- - - Updated - - -



Doesn't change rotation.

Does remove needless awkwardness.

Sure it does, right now you start over from scratch when switching. Not having to do that is a pretty big change. Not being able to just jump on a new target and nail it with a 5 point combo all the time does the same also. I am all for them switching it, however ppl acting like nothing will change yet it needs to happen are idiots. If nothing will change then why should they waste the time to make the switch?

[Koji2k11]

Sure it does, right now you start over from scratch when switching. Not having to do that is a pretty big change. Not being able to just jump on a new target and nail it with a 5 point combo all the time does the same also. I am all for them switching it, however ppl acting like nothing will change yet it needs to happen are idiots. If nothing will change then why should they waste the time to make the switch?

i dont understand what you try to say with your post :/

also how is a 5 cp evis nailing something in pvp its not like we crit for big amounts also our CC abilitys have CD and if you are worried about DT they could just place an CD on it and make it a ranged kick or remove it entirely