LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[RickJamesLich]

The multiple difficulties thing is just a cop out from blizz to not release actual content catered to the different players. IMO, they are almost setting it up so all players will want to take a break from Siege of Ogrimmar at some point, I feel bad in particular for LFR players, you start off in LFR, but occasionally do flex, after a few weeks your gear is good enough to do normal runs, eventually after a few months you clear the place and start doing it on heroic... who wouldn't be bored by the 4th version of the boss?

[Deleted]

Every single friend that had trouble with Tot, i could look at their logs and show them the problem or problems.
The fact that they weren't immediately apprent to the people struggling should be a clue as to the ease of solving the problems.

Actually He knew the problem but was hoping the player would become better as he was a long time raider/s. He sends me tells and links me numbers and i link ours on our alt run showing him it isnt gear as the people that used to be in his guild would say my dps is going to be so much better once i get this piece of gear and so on. So he geared them up and they still didnt pull good numbers so as a last resort I joined on a alt and another friend of mine who wasnt geared but was a good player. We both did much better than his raiders who had much more gear and he demoted the 2 people and is now 3/13H. He too blamed Blizzard for content being too diffcult until the first night we raided where we walked through Normals with no problem. In vent he said i cant believe we wiped on that for months when we full cleared the first night with two lesser geared players as the other two were in fact holding them back. He knew they were but has a big heart but now holds everyone accountable for their performance and runs a 2 person bench if someone makes mistakes over and over.

You are just assuming that progression is more important than hanging out with your buddies.

It's a game.

[unholyness]

Why would you be so anti empirical? Most people who go raiding die to shit over and over again. They always have. The people who learn, can control their toon and put out good numbers etc are the unusual ones. Like I said, if blizzard want everyones wow to be based around raiding, they have to design it for the vast bulk of people who actually play the game - mostly firestanding low dps/low hps, badly organised clickers.


Actually we took two months off because two of our guildies got married. (We are still ahead of the curve and in the upper crust of raiders, btw.)


Maybe, just maybe I'm more bothered about my guidlies than I am our progression. And so are the other people who have been doing this with me since vanilla. It's not my fault you act like a sociopath and think it's the only way to play.


"They" still can't clear normals. Booting people who don't measure up doesn't actually get them raiding. If you, Bob and John want to raid and you kick Bob and John, 2/3rds of you still aren't raiding. If Bob and John still want to raid, they are going to need a brand new mode in order to keep subbed. Or, another way, your toxic "kick the noobs" attitude is why we have LFR and flexi.

In fact, I think blizzard needs as many people as possible raiding in order to justify spending all that cash on it.

I'm going flexi in 5.4 I can take my friends, drink beer and have a laugh. If you think it's not the right attitude to take towards a social entertainment, a game, I couldn't give two curly turds. Have fun.

You have been whining about difficulty for as long as i have posted here. People learn and dont die to the SAME shit over and over again unless they are bad.

Go have your fun in Flex, it was created for guilds just like yours. Blizzard doesnt have to nerf already easy Normals and baddies/casuals can feel like raiders in Flex. Too bad it is gated and will be opened slowly so progression guilds dont take advantage of it.

1/13h is the upper crust of what?I think people have a very different view of what progression is.I guess our alts and our alt run that does 6/13H is the upper crust too lol.

yes booting the two baddies let to a full clear and passing other supposed progression guilds who only have 1/13H with two new people with only 515ilvl to 3/13H.

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You are just assuming that progression is more important than hanging out with your buddies.

It's a game.

And some people do it for the challenge. You should care less about difficulty if playing with your buddies is the most important aspect of Wow. Every friend I helped wanted to progress and every person that made changes had good results in progression. They come to me asking questions so yes they do care about progression. Why make changes just have a couple thousand whiny posts saying Wow is too hard instead.

[Sierra85]

You are just assuming that progression is more important than hanging out with your buddies.

It's a game.

So is Soccer, but in europe they riot and burn down buildings over the game. Don't assume your values of what a game is, will be the same as others.

[Deleted]

You have been whining about difficulty for as long as i have posted here. People learn and dont die to the SAME shit over and over again unless they are bad.

Not realistic.

Go have your fun in Flex, it was created for guilds just like yours. Blizzard doesnt have to nerf already easy Normals and baddies/casuals can feel like raiders in Flex. Too bad it is gated and will be opened slowly so progression guilds dont take advantage of it.

What do i care? it's going to be great. I don't even have to tell people they can't come tonight. 15-18 man raids I can have a beer while doing = perfection.

1/13h is the upper crust of what?I think people have a very different view of what progression is.I guess our alts and our alt run that does 6/13H is the upper crust too lol.

Empircism again matey. Look at everyone who raids, see where you are. oh look, I am better than average (and I don't care.)

yes booting the two baddies let to a full clear and passing other supposed progression guilds who only have 1/13H with two new people with only 515ilvl to 3/13H.

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And some people do it for the challenge. You should care less about difficulty if playing with your buddies is the most important aspect of Wow. Every friend I helped wanted to progress and every person that made changes had good results in progression. They come to me asking questions so yes they do care about progression. Why make changes just have a couple thousand whiny posts saying Wow is too hard instead.

Yes, but what you keep missing is the people who do it for the challenge are statistical oddballs who basically don't count when it comes to the playerbase. Most people just want to have fun while playing their game. Wiping lots and having to fire your mates as though you are CEO of Guild Incorporated after a spending review isn't any bloody fun for normal people.

[Deech86]

Seems like there's a flaw somewhere if the solution is to keep adding more difficulty levels.

[xanzul]

Before I rant --- I love the idea of flex - I think it should be implemented for all difficulty levels.

I hate having multiple difficulty levels. Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?

Solution: One difficulty (heroic) with flex. Every month, any bosses that have been killed by at least 100 different guilds take a 10% nerf. Top end guilds can still push for rankings without worry, and the casuals can still see all content before next tier, and EVERYBODY gets excited when they kill a boss (if anybody even remembers that feeling)....

And who cares about perfectly balancing flex --- let the top end guilds play around with the numbers & compositions themselves.

Those of you who endlessly whine about differnt difficulties do realize each one is intended for an entirely different separate audience right? You aren't expected to do all of them every week. In fact why are you whining over having to kill the same boss over and over? You would be doing this anyway regardless of whether or not Blizzard had implemented LFR/flex/heroic. Seriously the mods need to just start perm banning anyone spamming the forums with this crap.

[MoanaLisa]

Seems like there's a flaw somewhere if the solution is to keep adding more difficulty levels.

It's possible that the flaw was not enough difficulty levels.

[Urza29]

As a LFR raider, i welcome flex, because i may aucutally have time and find people to do flex, thus giving me a little more challenge. I find LFR just an extra grind for the week, along with dailies, finishing reps, pet battles, scenarios, heroic scenarios...it all feels like a job to me anymore.

I log in and have this list of things to get done per day/week and LFR just feels like a bullet on that list, there is no epic feeling for raiding from it, its like a 25 man 5 man dungeon, the content is the same week after week, queue up, clear a wing, queue for next...clear all wings, come back next week just for the sake of capping valor/getting gear that isnt really that great (502)...if i could get 522 gear with content that is a little more challenging than LFR but not quite as hard normal/heroics i would totally be down for that

whoever said it earlier, that the gap between LFR and normals is to great, is right, if you can do LFR and find it way to boring/grindy then you can probably do normals...the challenge doesnt come from doing the content, the challenge is finding the time/people/competent guild. Everyone's situation is different, with flex they have understood that, and gave us a in-between for those of us who could get into doing it, a step up from LFR but not quite normal, and get gear that is better than LFR so doesnt feel like a waste of time, compared to normal raiding gear which is decently good

I aucutally plan on finding a guild that is decent and can raid this tier in flex, i am pretty excited because now i have something to look forward to other than LFR and the sub-par gear and not have to grind it every week, after week, at least flex keeps it semi-interesting, makes me feel like a real raider, rather than a heroic 25man dungeon, i'd be content with full set of flex gear, hell if it works out great it could lead to me finally entering normal raiding for the first time since wrath

They would be better off merging it all into 1 raid size (15 man) and making 3 tiers of diffuclty with LFR the least, then normals and heroic but setting up flex so that you can pick/choose players from a pool of players that have gone through trials say proving grounds gold, and gotten x achievement or x this or that, and then you can enter yourself into a raiding LFR thing.

so if guilds need players to fill a raid whenever they want they can pull players who at least are somewhat competent (hard to measure competency) they can even make it so that each guild individually has a certain criteria set up, say you must be gemmed, enchanted, reforged etc to get a spot, this would also create an overall increase of competent players, if you aren't good enough, its time to get better, if you want to raid then read/research and play better, the game shouldn't hand you stuff even if you are day 1 90, just cuz you don't know wtf to do like it is now with LFR basically.

each player in the pool of players wanting to raid could be inspected/looked at in real time, in game, and then raid leader could decide if they want them or not, it wouldnt be any different than pugging from chat, but this way it would be a bit more organized, and intuitive, and people who want to raid simply could queue up, and then be given a message once a guild/group is looking at your profile, or is interested in you to join them, they can whisper them or something.

if they ever got around to aucutally implementing in game voice chat that worked and was on par with other voice chat services, then maybe that would help a lot too, just being able to listen in your raid, not even having to talk back if you didnt have a mic etc.

/end

[Toxigen]

Injin strikes again.

Lighter note - even heroic progression nights require beers.

[Chirri]

So many people hate having more options. So many people can't simply say NO. So many people apparently can't play the game for sh** without low ilevel versions of the gear they really want. It blows my mind! A good player will remain a good player rather than a dead weight, regardless of gear (within reason, of course). A bad player will remain a bad player and an albatross about our necks, regardless of gear.

If you can't discipline yourself to only run things as often as you can without ruining your enjoyment of the game, that's not Blizzard's, WoW's, or other players' faults. Stop encouraging the punishment of other players because you can't control yourself, or because you're willing to eat the crap a raid leader is shoveling down your throat that makes your $15 less worth your while.

LFR: So Blizzard's time and money spent on a raid are less wasted.
Flex: So you can raid with people you enjoy spending time with, don't have to deal with random assholes, and experience something in a relaxed environment.
Normal: Standard "serious" raiding, it's sort of been around a while.
Hard / Heroic: Because standard "serious" raiding isn't "serious" enough for a certain kind of player, and Blizzard wants to retain subscriptions from people who other wise consume raid content more quickly than Blizzard can create it.

Really, if you're going to just chop of chunks of raid difficulty, I'd suggest everything outside of Normal.

[Normie]

So I'm in a raiding guild where my raid leader doesn't want his players to have the most optimal gear that will help our progression? Gear is a nerf to content, the more gear you get the easier things become. I don't remember hearing someone say "We are going to lock our raid out on xxx final boss this week and skip a weeks worth of heroic gear because we don't want/need it".

Maybe he would say not to use flasks or food on progression attempts, which I've been in guilds that have said that (esp Heroic Rag attempts that didn't even reach p4). Did I still do it? Yes. Does that make me a try hard? I suppose, how dare I want to perform my role efficiently so I'm not wasting my guild mates time.

I don't think you understand.

If your raid leader tells you not to run Flex or LFR, because he thinks your time is better spent enjoying your life than spending 2-4 hours for another .5 ilevels, then showing up bitchy for raids because you hate running LFR, you would ignore his instruction?

[Rizendragon]

Before I rant --- I love the idea of flex - I think it should be implemented for all difficulty levels.

I hate having multiple difficulty levels. Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?

Solution: One difficulty (heroic) with flex. Every month, any bosses that have been killed by at least 100 different guilds take a 10% nerf. Top end guilds can still push for rankings without worry, and the casuals can still see all content before next tier, and EVERYBODY gets excited when they kill a boss (if anybody even remembers that feeling)....

And who cares about perfectly balancing flex --- let the top end guilds play around with the numbers & compositions themselves.

Terible idea. Nerfing things to the ground is not fun or exciting. It makes one feel like they've killed the special ed version of the encounter...

[Volitar]

I wouldn't mind if LFR was truly separate. Every tier this expansion I've sat in LFR for at least a month trying to get upgrades or tier or legendary quest progress. I hate LFR and don't want to do it but if I want to maintain at the top I have to.

[Normie]

It's possible that the flaw was not enough difficulty levels.

Or, the wrong difficulty levels (no "normal" that is actually "normal").

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I wouldn't mind if LFR was truly separate. Every tier this expansion I've sat in LFR for at least a month trying to get upgrades or tier or legendary quest progress. I hate LFR and don't want to do it but if I want to maintain at the top I have to.

There is someone at the "top" that has to run LFR?

Nope.

If you are in LFR for the legendary quest, that's because you aren't in normal for the bosses you aren't farming on heroic. Why aren't you in normal for those bosses?

You don't need to be in LFR for any reason at all if you are doing heroic progression, assuming you're any good at it.

[Rizendragon]

The multiple difficulties thing is just a cop out from blizz to not release actual content catered to the different players. IMO, they are almost setting it up so all players will want to take a break from Siege of Ogrimmar at some point, I feel bad in particular for LFR players, you start off in LFR, but occasionally do flex, after a few weeks your gear is good enough to do normal runs, eventually after a few months you clear the place and start doing it on heroic... who wouldn't be bored by the 4th version of the boss?

I can usually run a raid for months on end and not be bored of it. ICC had 4 versions that I ran extensively for it's entire run. Some people like running rids like this. Others don't. If you don't then don't do it, and enjoy another aspect of the game.

[rayden54]

So I'm in a raiding guild where my raid leader doesn't want his players to have the most optimal gear that will help our progression? Gear is a nerf to content, the more gear you get the easier things become. I don't remember hearing someone say "We are going to lock our raid out on xxx final boss this week and skip a weeks worth of heroic gear because we don't want/need it".

Better undergeared a bit than completely burnt out.

[Normie]

Better undergeared a bit than completely burnt out.

Right.

If you hate playing a game a certain way, don't play it that way.

If you hate the game altogether, don't play it at all.

If there is peer pressure for you to play the game in a way you don't find enjoyable, then find some different peers.

The answer to "the game isn't fun the way I have chosen to play it" is not "change the game."

[lawow74]

Options are good, and difficulty modes are easier to create than content for every player type. That pretty much answers the question of why. Though I like to think every time a turbonerd rages about LFR(they call it LOLFR, easy identifying mark)someone at Blizzard has a laugh while sitting in their gold-plated office chair drinking coffee out of their $10,000 pimp cup.

[Dragore]

I just don't understand the concept they define Flex to be; to raid with friends and family. Why would one run flex if they have the numbers and just run normal?

I understand they are testing with Flex and hopefully in the future remove flex as its own and go back to LFR > Normal(flex) > Heroic(flex)