What happened to alliance vs horde? Is garrosh really that bad?

[Rathnor The Flesher]

because if they weren't they would be in the small fanatical group that is made up only of orcs (who are likely almost all going to die), some gallywix loyal goblins, and enslaved members of other races. garrosh is a complete failure when it comes to tactics, his plans are all extremely basic and dependent on a monster or death trap being pulled out of his hat, and if the people who love him haven't noticed, HE'S BEEN LOSING THE FIGHT SINCE HE STARTED IT. the barrens? alliance took ground in the barrens it wouldn't even have if he hadn't attacked them, every move he made in pandaria was countered or demolished, he can't even scratch lion's landing while alliance forces are actively invading domination point, gilneas a win for garrosh? HA! all of that was done by sylvanas and she wouldn't have even fought the worgen there if not for garrosh forcing her to, which is part of what brought them into the alliance.

garrosh is only good for starting a fight and getting his troops killed but you want to join his side? fine, roll orc, go to timeless isles, turn on the censer and see how long you last...that's your authentic garrosh supporter experience.

I'd much rather have the choice of fighting for a doomed cause than having none at all.

[razorfire]

I'd much rather have the choice of fighting for a doomed cause than having none at all.

what cause? all he's had as a cause for the duration of his tenure as warchief was "smash alliance, I'll be a hero! I'll be even more famous and loved than my dad! LOOK AT ME GUYS I'M SMASHING ALLIANCE!" and the horde has been split between people like me who think he never should've got the spot in the first place and people who think that as long as they get to fight he's the coolest thing ever. I mean I get that some people want a lore fight with alliance, but do they really need to trip over themselves worshiping the guy just because of that? he tore apart his own faction for his ego, how is that worth following?

[Mormolyce]

As a horde player I don't see what garrosh did as the ultimate must die that blizz made it out to be Pre-expansion release. Yes he alienated races other then orcs but I feel like that was a cheap way to go about turning the horde on him. As an Orc there should be no reason to hate him I feel. Thoughts?

He tried to have Vol'jin assassinated, stole dark magics from Pandaria and deliberately infested Orcs with Sha energies.

If you didn't hate him already, he crosses the moral event horizon during the Dominance Offensive quest chain.

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Can we please stop splitting hairs? That wasn't the point and you all know damn well it wasn't. Also, a good deal of Horde players didn't ask to join a rebellion. Why are crucial decisions like this made for the character?

Because WoW is a linear game.

Though I doubt Blizzard would ever have made a game where you could side with someone like Garrosh. He is in no way sympathetic at this point. Why some people actually want to side with him is baffling...

[Theendgamelv3]

Can we please stop splitting hairs? That wasn't the point and you all know damn well it wasn't. Also, a good deal of Horde players didn't ask to join a rebellion. Why are crucial decisions like this made for the character?

This isn't a sandbox MMO, that is why. How in the world do you even want to try to make it work where you fight for Garrosh? This isn't how WoW has ever worked and you're asking for WoW to work this way now. There always has been a linear main story. You play "the hero" and "the hero" doesn't fight against "good". There isn't much choice nor there hasn't been much choice. You talk about how they forgot about "war" in world of warcraft, yet there is war isn't the "war", but it isn't the war you want. There hasn't been a true Horde vs Ally until now and now that is ending. It would have so GREAT to see a Warcraft 4 game focusing on this war, but we won't nor ever will. Fact of the matter is that there has been war in WoW, war against the old gods, Burning Legion, Arthas, etc. so you can't say they forgot about the "war" in Warcraft, ESPECIALLY when that kind of war hasn't been seen WC2 until this expansion.

[Seezer]

Wow, sorry, but that's hooey. They built up that character gradually since he first appeared in TBC and it was already clear in WotLK that they had this in mind with him.

And I don't know where you guys have been the last months, but this expansion was very much about red vs. blue.

Not true at all. Garrosh at the beginning of cata looked like he was going to be a psychopath. Then Stonetalon happened. It seemed like that was the fork in the road. Then, nothing. Until THERAMORE AND MoP!!!! Now we're back to psycho mode. Stonetalon Garrosh is totally out of place. Why? Because Blizz switched gears. MoP wasn't even supposed to be the post cata expac. They were developing another one completely. And those are the facts. Garrosh's fate was always in the air.

[The Stormbringer]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but he tried to kill Anduin. You don't go after the child of the leader of the Alliance's military.

[Dreknar20]

Technically, it's still Horde vs. Alliance in SoO-- it's just Garrosh's Horde, not the player Horde.

idk, like Metzen said during Blizzcon it will be on a scale not seen since the Second War, so i guess people expected like really big things
Plus as a Horde the conflict is very lacking, you spend more time this expansion killing fellow Horde than you do Alliance

[razorfire]

Not true at all. Garrosh at the beginning of cata looked like he was going to be a psychopath. Then Stonetalon happened. It seemed like that was the fork in the road. Then, nothing. Until THERAMORE AND MoP!!!! Now we're back to psycho mode. Stonetalon Garrosh is totally out of place. Why? Because Blizz switched gears. MoP wasn't even supposed to be the post cata expac. They were developing another one completely. And those are the facts. Garrosh's fate was always in the air.

you mean stonetalon where his personal hero complex and daddy issues stepped in and he distanced himself from the guy who: A: nuked a place that also trained HORDE druids. and B: did something that would make garrosh look like a coward if he ordered it? heck the reason he managed to nuke theramore without a second thought was because at that point malkorok and the fanatic blackrock orcs showed up and started telling him he was pretty much a god in orc form because he acted like the dark horde idiots who nearly got them all killed.

edit:

PS: just quoting saurfang doesn't mean he learned anything from him, right after wrath he attacks and slaughters almost everyone on an already crippled alliance ship and sends the one or two survivors to stormwind as a warning...then says it's all as a "lesson of mercy" that cairne was saying he needed more of... yeah...he can SAY he learned it from someone that doesn't mean he knows a thing about what they said.

[SodiumChloride]

since when has logic ever been the sole reasoning for anything anywhere?
Emotions and morals will always have an equal if not greater influence on people

Yes, "emotions and morals", but even then there is a reason - namely "emotions and morals".

Exactly what deep seated "emotions and morals" are motivating the current conflict?

Sure, the Horde and Alliance aren't going to be BFF anytime soon, but continuous open war - especially with the likes of the Burning Legion and Old Gods breathing down our necks - is just as ridiculous.

[Airwaves]

In other words, what you are saying is that our actions and characters are moot because it is all pre-determined. Congratulations, everybody, nothing in-game matters!

Yes i am. Just like every other single rpg that doesn't give you choices. This doesn't mean you can't enjoy the story. But it doesn't change the fact that our character progression is pre-determined.

Your choices are made for you. Deal with it.

[Dreknar20]

he can't even scratch lion's landing while alliance forces are actively invading domination point, gilneas a win for garrosh?

da faq?
Both scenarios play out exactly the same

[Rathnor The Flesher]

What part of razing Alliance territory, destroying your enemies in whatever way they can be, and asserting your dominance is not appealing from a role-play perspective? Maybe I'm so enamored with Garrosh because he actually has passion to do something, and while yes he is trying to fill his father's shoes it only drives him further to do what he feels is necessary to take what he believes is the right of the Horde. Yes, Blizz makes him do a lot of stuff that is tactically unsound and blatantly villainous (by human standards), but at least he has a goal he's working toward achieving. Maybe I like Garrosh because all the other faction leaders are boring.

[Dreknar20]

- especially with the likes of the Burning Legion and Old Gods breathing down our necks - is just as ridiculous.

except none of those are breathing down our necks

[SodiumChloride]

except none of those are breathing down our necks

So after 2 invasion attempts by the Legion. Several "resurrections" of the Old Gods. Both which aren't "dead" and can strike at anytime.

You think that isn't "breathing down our necks"?

[Theendgamelv3]

Not true at all. Garrosh at the beginning of cata looked like he was going to be a psychopath. Then Stonetalon happened. It seemed like that was the fork in the road. Then, nothing. Until THERAMORE AND MoP!!!! Now we're back to psycho mode. Stonetalon Garrosh is totally out of place. Why? Because Blizz switched gears. MoP wasn't even supposed to be the post cata expac. They were developing another one completely. And those are the facts. Garrosh's fate was always in the air.

Yes, this kinda disappoints me cause Stonetalon Garrosh is totally out of place like you said. Hell him being pissed off at Sylvanas partly out of place too. To me it looks like he was gonna be built as this character who was gonna follow in his dad's footsteps, but realize wtf he was doing was wrong just like his dad. He looked down on his dad and now he is doing basically the same thing. I thought maybe he was gonna get redemption at the start of the expansion, but clearly he won't and we will kill him.

[SodiumChloride]

What part of razing Alliance territory, destroying your enemies in whatever way they can be, and asserting your dominance is not appealing from a role-play perspective? Maybe I'm so enamored with Garrosh because he actually has passion to do something, and while yes he is trying to fill his father's shoes it only drives him further to do what he feels is necessary to take what he believes is the right of the Horde. Yes, Blizz makes him do a lot of stuff that is tactically unsound and blatantly villainous (by human standards), but at least he has a goal he's working toward achieving. Maybe I like Garrosh because all the other faction leaders are boring.

Problem is Blizzard isn't giving anyone the choice.

If pulling a Conan the Barbarian floats your boat, sure. But not everyone is into that.

[Dreknar20]

You think that isn't "breathing down our necks"?

Seeing how we defeated all that, no it isnt 'breathing down our necks'
Because none of those threats are iminent, there are no demons marshalling in Outland, no resurgence of the Twilight Cult........nothing
All we have is the word of a single dragon......and a maaaaaaybe feeling. Thats it

Its not hard to see why its easier for people to focus on the enemy right next to them rather than some unknown supernatural/alien enemy from outer space

[razorfire]

da faq?
Both scenarios play out exactly the same

you've seen them right? scenarios: domination point: you push back an alliance offense that already just about decimated your base. alliance version: YOU SET UP TRAPS AND ALL THE HORDE FORCES STUPIDLY CHARGE INTO THEM AND DIE!

dailies: alliance forces sieging the inside of domination point with an unkillable airship, boats that survive having their entire weapons payload detonated, and gyrocopters shooting everything with little to no actual resistance....alliance side: all of the horde forces are stuck on the beach waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to the side of the base, alliance has such thick air support over their base that you don't see a single horde flyer in the air and the horde boats? they're already wrecked on the shore...the most you can do that's actually IN the alliance base is plant wards to spy on them.. yeah...completely the same...

[Dreknar20]

Yes, this kinda disappoints me cause Stonetalon Garrosh is totally out of place like you said. Hell him being pissed off at Sylvanas partly out of place too.

then i guess Heart of War and the Shattering were also out of place
For things that are out of place they happen quite a lot

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you've seen them right? scenarios: domination point: you push back an alliance offense that already just about decimated your base. alliance version: YOU SET UP TRAPS AND ALL THE HORDE FORCES STUPIDLY CHARGE INTO THEM AND DIE!

I guess you never heard of the Lion's Landing scenario

[SodiumChloride]

Seeing how we defeated all that, no it isnt 'breathing down our necks'
Because none of those threats are iminent, there are no demons marshalling in Outland, no resurgence of the Twilight Cult........nothing
All we have is the word of a single dragon......and a maaaaaaybe feeling. Thats it

Its not hard to see why its easier for people to focus on the enemy right next to them rather than some unknown supernatural/alien enemy from outer space

I don't know man. Our victories were less than "convincing", we didn't exactly beat them off easily. Wasting resources on poorly justified wars don't seem like all that good an idea.