[Balance] 5.4 Changes and Thoughts

[Fleuria]

Oh and people upvoting the post will also tend to get blizzards attention.

[Velaniz]

Sigh. Nothing could have as firmly cemented the fact that I won't be returning in 5.4 as that stupid fucking Starsurge change.

[Deleted]

On a fight like Galakras (P1).
How many targets should we dot with eclipsed or/and uneclipsed dot for the optimal dps?

[Cyous]

Can anyone who played PTR tell me how much is a dps increase with buff to wrath and starfire and loss form nerf on shooting star, and will we have issue with mana?

In single-target it's a 3-4% buff.

It's a 0-1% buff in Multi-Target before factoring SS proc rates. Coupled with the loss of SS procs, a simple way to determine "Damage Lost" would be to review your SS wastage. If you have reduce the number of procs by 50%,given this won't affect SS wastage, you still need to adjust your number of SS casts downwards. reduce your SS damage by 25% (this number is just a general value). It's only a slight estimation based on the general playstyle. If SS was 25% of your total damage in a heavy multi-target fight, it's a 6.25% nerf to SS output, and that makes it a 5.25% nerf overall to multi-target in a general sense.

Mana doesn't mean anything to us.

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On a fight like Galakras (P1).
How many targets should we dot with eclipsed or/and uneclipsed dot for the optimal dps?

With CA active - all of them.
Without CA - all of them.

All the adds need to die, just put up both DOTs and SS-weave when you can. You want to get to 20 Lunar or 5/10/15/20 Solar Eclipse as soon as possible (preferable before multi-DOTing). Since we don't focus on SS damage after 5+ targets, Eclipse is meaningless. Cycling Eclipse is what is most important, so use AC if you have to, but don't AC if you could be casting Starfire or Wrath or Starsurge.

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Cyous collate all your posts you've made make a new thread on the blizzard forums with some reasons, tweet them to ghostcrawler/lore other cms and hopefully you will get a decent reply as they won't bother replying to you on a multi page thread where all your really good posts are completely split up that has tons of just whine posts, this is atleast how other classes got replies.

Unfortunately, I don't think it would have favorable results. Taking into account for how they develop WoW and stick to a type of model for specs, there is little reason to make a consolidated issues thread. In fact, we're just needing QOL improvements for the most part. Damage is more than fine. Rather than make a fuss over the final patch, I'd rather help sway the design for 6.0 to something that fixes many of Balance druid's flaws (such as excessive scaling), AOE revamping (because Hurricane is old), and making talents worthwhile. In addition, there needs to be an alternative to this awful SS change (the fact that it is effectively nerfing what it was designed to nerf is fine, but it completely destroyed every single non-Progression Raiding aspect of Balance -- it's a terrible change for that reason, not because it's "just a big bad nerf QQ").

I've spent quite a bit of time in the "illegal" private servers waaaaay back in the days of TBC and into WOTLK. (They're not illegal, just frowned upon.) I can understand how having players "develop your game for you" can feel...it's not a bad feeling, just annoying. But if the players made suggestions that weren't asinine, sometimes it sparked an idea or you agreed with it -- even if you do twist their original design. (After all, your first draft should never be your final draft.) While I'm not advocating for a specific change, there are some aspects which need attention.

Again, validating your efforts is more important than "forcing" your one-size-fits-all suggestion. (Because lobbyists are working out sooooo well, right US Political system? [I'm 'merican, our politics are like LFR -- a good idea made bad by those who grief the rest of the group.]) And yes, I really did compare LFR to US Politics...because it seems oddly...true...

[Cybb]

With CA active - all of them.
Without CA - all of them.

brb, making CA WA

[markos82]

In single-target it's a 3-4% buff.

It's a 0-1% buff in Multi-Target before factoring SS proc rates. Coupled with the loss of SS procs, a simple way to determine "Damage Lost" would be to review your SS wastage. If you have reduce the number of procs by 50%,given this won't affect SS wastage, you still need to adjust your number of SS casts downwards. reduce your SS damage by 25% (this number is just a general value). It's only a slight estimation based on the general playstyle. If SS was 25% of your total damage in a heavy multi-target fight, it's a 6.25% nerf to SS output, and that makes it a 5.25% nerf overall to multi-target in a general sense.

Mana doesn't mean anything to us.

So basically Moonkins are nerfed in 5.4.... Instead of giving us a stacking proc on SS, so we can cast, lets say 3 at the same time, well one by one, something like if you spec into Force of nature, they decided to nerf us. Sometimes i'm wondering what kind of <bip> work for them.

[dark666105]

Would be nice to at least make our AoE more spur of the moment/spamable and not a pain in the butt to setup and maintain if even remotely possible esp with the imbalance of hurricane and astral storm (which really as flavor is just a thorn in our sides rather than something interesting). Just kinda disappointing they targetted the way we coped with crappy AoE and haven't done a thing with what they even admitted was a problem and was on the table to be looked at.

Other than that my only gripes are very minor, would be nice to have a 40yd range on Innervate, I swear our healers wait till Im over 30yds away to call for it. Also would be nice if since it doesn't stealth you anymore (and the speed doesn't seem to stack with cat form anyways) if displacer beast didnt pop you into cat form.

But yeah other than that we are probably in a good spot.

I don't mind that we don't get attention, I just mind when they acknowledge that something is a problem say they are going to look into it and don't say a word, not a yes we are still looking into it, not a no we dropped it, nothing.

Not to mention I find their various reasons for the DR loss entirely ridiculous but hey its not a game breaker.

[Cyous]

brb, making CA WA

I absolutely love my PowerAura for Incarnation and CA. It's just so flashy and out-of-date since MOP Beta.

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So basically Moonkins are nerfed in 5.4.... Instead of giving us a stacking proc on SS, so we can cast, lets say 3 at the same time, well one by one, something like if you spec into Force of nature, they decided to nerf us. Sometimes i'm wondering what kind of <bip> work for them.

Not really nerfed damage-wise. We're more or less competitive up to 3 targets. 4+ and we start to fall behind. 5+ and we're mediocre. 8+ targets and we're one of the worst (probably the worst since EnhShaman got a fat buff to Fire Nova).

[Mirri]

I absolutely love my PowerAura for Incarnation and CA. It's just so flashy and out-of-date since MOP Beta.

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Not really nerfed damage-wise. We're more or less competitive up to 3 targets. 4+ and we start to fall behind. 5+ and we're mediocre. 8+ targets and we're one of the worst (probably the worst since EnhShaman got a fat buff to Fire Nova).

6% nerf assuming that our SS proc wastage stays at high 30s to 40s %.
Seems like a pretty questionable assumption to make.
Could you explain why you think our ss wastage wont go down with the ss proc changes cyous ?
I would have thought otherwise.

[Cyous]

6% nerf assuming that our SS proc wastage stays at high 30s to 40s %.
Seems like a pretty questionable assumption to make.
Could you explain why you think our ss wastage wont go down with the ss proc changes cyous ?
I would have thought otherwise.

It will go down because you're getting less chances. I really thought it over, and if you had 50 SS casts in 100 procs now...we should expect half as many procs... but does 50 casts in 50 procs make sense? I wouldn't expect 25 procs missed, though... maybe 25% less casts (37-38 casts) makes far more sense...no? On the flip side, if we removed 50 SS procs...we cannot simply say "remove 50 SS casts!" (we'd have 0 casts then!). Rather than say "remove this many casts" I'm simply assumed you'll have less SS casts, but certainly less wastage...at 25% wastage...it was a fair number, no?

[Mirri]

It will go down because you're getting less chances. I really thought it over, and if you had 50 SS casts in 100 procs now...we should expect half as many procs... but does 50 casts in 50 procs make sense? I wouldn't expect 25 procs missed, though... maybe 25% less casts (37-38 casts) makes far more sense...no? On the flip side, if we removed 50 SS procs...we cannot simply say "remove 50 SS casts!" (we'd have 0 casts then!). Rather than say "remove this many casts" I'm simply assumed you'll have less SS casts, but certainly less wastage...at 25% wastage...it was a fair number, no?

Fair enough with the SS proc/cast/wastage maths, it seems fairly reasonable (other than the fact that most WoL balance druids are showing 55-65% proc wastages on Council fights while you took a figure of 50%) but I was surprised that you just decided to ignore the GCD's that would be now freed up due to having less procs.

Less casts of SS = more casts of starfire/wrath yes? In your 5.25% overall nerf maths, I don't see where you accounted for extra starfire/wraths from the freed-up GCDs.
Unless you meant your 0-1% multi-target buff to account for the extra GCDs
But you did specifically state that 0-1% buff is before SS proc changes so I'm confused where you accounted for the missing GCDs that you could instead fill in with Starfires/Wraths! Could you kindly show how you would calculate that?

By the way, Im not trying to be confrontational, just wanna understand your maths and reasoning better

[Cyous]

Fair enough with the SS proc/cast/wastage maths, it seems fairly reasonable (other than the fact that most WoL balance druids are showing 55-65% proc wastages on Council fights while you took a figure of 50%) but I was surprised that you just decided to ignore the GCD's that would be now freed up due to having less procs.

Less casts of SS = more casts of starfire/wrath yes? In your 5.25% overall nerf maths, I don't see where you accounted for extra starfire/wraths from the freed-up GCDs.
Unless you meant your 0-1% multi-target buff to account for the extra GCDs
But you did specifically state that 0-1% buff is before SS proc changes so I'm confused where you accounted for the missing GCDs that you could instead fill in with Starfires/Wraths! Could you kindly show how you would calculate that?

By the way, Im not trying to be confrontational, just wanna understand your maths and reasoning better

I just go to WoL and check the damage output of each spell (%). 10% buffs mean 10% in 5.3 = 11% in 5.4.

That's really it. It's gives a general idea of what to expect, though it's not perfect. Our damage values are going to shift, but it's hard to say "you'll have X more Starfire and Wrath casts!" ...it's just ...not a good idea to math that out...since it also won't be perfect. The 0-1% buff to Multi-Target I mentioned earlier specifically stated "this does not factor in the loss of SS casts." Basically, our multi-target values for Starfall, Starfire and Wrath made up a very, very small amount of our damage. Then factoring in the loss of SS procs, it'll be a fair nerf of ~6.25% given those general values from earlier. Add 1% buff from non-SS sources to the -6.25% and we get -5.25%. Again, this isn't perfect and I won't try to figure out a more precise value. It assumes a lot of general values, so a 5.25% nerf is a general idea of what to expect. YMMV.

Also, I'm not trying to ignore something, it's just...really difficult to emulate play without a valid simulator AI. Since I'm doing most of this generic values in my head, I try to keep it simple (I'll write them out for things like the SS changes because SQRT(n)/(n) = LEMME MAKE THIS ROBOT DO IT FOR ME).

[kendro1200]

I absolutely love my PowerAura for Incarnation and CA. It's just so flashy and out-of-date since MOP Beta.

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Not really nerfed damage-wise. We're more or less competitive up to 3 targets. 4+ and we start to fall behind. 5+ and we're mediocre. 8+ targets and we're one of the worst (probably the worst since EnhShaman got a fat buff to Fire Nova).

Some of the really important fights in SoO are 4+ targets though, sooooo yeah. This is like the opposite of DS, but presents the exact same issue, the spec going severely pigeon holed into one specific form of play, crippling its ability to perform in a wider spectrum.

As to your earlier comments about players developing your game for you, I really wish that it didn't need to be even done, but the fact of the matter is that Blizzard's devs haven't been able to develop their game on their own for years now, most of them are so out of touch (despite their claims) or incapable of breaking molds and coming up with fresh ideas that the community has to put ideas together and try their hardest to shove them down throats, because otherwise stuff gets broken and classes move towards something entirely inoperable, Cata warlocks being the poster child for this. It took the class to be reduced down to less than 4% of the game's population in order for Blizzard to look at the class and realize, "huh maybe we're doing this wrong..." It's a proven track record if you let things slide with them and don't keep their teams on their toes they'll slack and let things slide by. While I'd like it if we could set up suggestions and word them in such a manner that dev teams could be like, "oh, that's something I completely agree with and conforms with what I have planned and visioned for the class." Sometimes what classes need don't fit their pre-envisioned fantasies, and blunt force needs to be applied by the community to shatter those expectations so a spec or an entire class doesn't fester upon its problems into an unplayable state.

[Cyous]

Some of the really important fights in SoO are 4+ targets though, sooooo yeah. This is like the opposite of DS, but presents the exact same issue, the spec going severely pigeon holed into one specific form of play, crippling its ability to perform in a wider spectrum.

As to your earlier comments about players developing your game for you, I really wish that it didn't need to be even done, but the fact of the matter is that Blizzard's devs haven't been able to develop their game on their own for years now, most of them are so out of touch (despite their claims) or incapable of breaking molds and coming up with fresh ideas that the community has to put ideas together and try their hardest to shove them down throats, because otherwise stuff gets broken and classes move towards something entirely inoperable, Cata warlocks being the poster child for this. It took the class to be reduced down to less than 4% of the game's population in order for Blizzard to look at the class and realize, "huh maybe we're doing this wrong..." It's a proven track record if you let things slide with them and don't keep their teams on their toes they'll slack and let things slide by. While I'd like it if we could set up suggestions and word them in such a manner that dev teams could be like, "oh, that's something I completely agree with and conforms with what I have planned and visioned for the class." Sometimes what classes need don't fit their pre-envisioned fantasies, and blunt force needs to be applied by the community to shatter those expectations so a spec or an entire class doesn't fester upon its problems into an unplayable state.

1- target = good
2 = great
3 = good
4 = meh
5+ = QQ

That's how I see SS proc rates (it's easier to relate, I think).

AS for the players devlepoing games for the owner...I sometimes find myself annoying with all the suggestions I come up with. It's not that they aren't good or impossible to implement, it's just a matter of "do we really need it that much?" Class Devs are people too, and being part of the group "people" I can figure they don't like being told how to do their jobs. But I think that's where they're wrong -- other people aren't telling them how to do their job, they're giving ideas to make their job have a focused discussion. "Do we really need an AOE revamp?" No...Hurricane is fine -- don't hate me for saying that. Hurricane is fine because it's functional, albeit very old and stale. Hurricane could use a revamp. We could also scrap Hurricne for something more befitting of the spec's core design. (core deign = cycling eclipse).

I've said it many times in the past, and I'll stay it again: I don't care about damage. Creating a concept for the spell to be based around is the hardest part of making a spell. Damage is easy, because numbers are simple. If the current spell is boring, the damage will be boring even if the damage is tuned properly. If the model is exciting, the damage can exciting when it's tuned properly. Once the damage is tuned, you have an exciting model with proper output.

[Dumdidum]

If you use starfall prepull the t16 2set will already fire the bolt at your target, even if not in eclipse.
Can someone pls post this on us forum so it gets fixed before release maybe?

[Deleted]

With the increasing relative value of mastery compared to our other stats next patch, will it now be even or better to use incarnation over force of nature, considering our treants do not scale with mastery?
How about the multistrike trinket? Does that interact with treants?

I personally like the big fat numbers coming from incarnation, but treants are very good on movement heavy fights where you can just plonk em down and have that thing do it's job while you are fishing for SS procs. Currently I'm just wondering how the stance is between the two talents in bis or close to bis gear.

[Juvencus]

If you use starfall prepull the t16 2set will already fire the bolt at your target, even if not in eclipse.
Can someone pls post this on us forum so it gets fixed before release maybe?

You mean the very initial activation of starfall fires off a bolt at current target? That would be bad indeed

Also:

• Dream of Cenarius now increases the damage bonus of your next Eclipse by 25% for Balance, up from 10%.
• Nature's Vigil now increases all damage and healing done by 12% for 30 sec, up from 10%.

What does that mean for HotW? If NV was better at 20% what's the point where the shift happens. Also wasn't there discussion for DoC that 25% was the point where it becomes "good"? Not that I look forward to using that clunky excuse of a talent...

[Cyous]

You mean the very initial activation of starfall fires off a bolt at current target? That would be bad indeed

Also:

• Dream of Cenarius now increases the damage bonus of your next Eclipse by 25% for Balance, up from 10%.
• Nature's Vigil now increases all damage and healing done by 12% for 30 sec, up from 10%.

What does that mean for HotW? If NV was better at 20% what's the point where the shift happens. Also wasn't there discussion for DoC that 25% was the point where it becomes "good"? Not that I look forward to using that clunky excuse of a talent...

DOC will be king on Multi-Target fights as this rate.

[Slippykins]

You mean the very initial activation of starfall fires off a bolt at current target? That would be bad indeed

Also:

• Dream of Cenarius now increases the damage bonus of your next Eclipse by 25% for Balance, up from 10%.
• Nature's Vigil now increases all damage and healing done by 12% for 30 sec, up from 10%.

What does that mean for HotW? If NV was better at 20% what's the point where the shift happens. Also wasn't there discussion for DoC that 25% was the point where it becomes "good"? Not that I look forward to using that clunky excuse of a talent...

Yep, I totally called it 2 months ago. http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130885-...7/#post2304395

NV will be closer to HotW but I don't think it'll surpass it. The real contender will be DoC, which will have good synergy with burst (more so than NV) as well as some consistent damage. It's a bit of bloat to the rotation, but oh well.

Overall, in WrathCalcs it's worth around 15% DPS less than HotW, but as we've seen in the past two tiers burst is not to be discredited.

[Cybb]

Lol, If this goes live... just... HAHAHA.