[Megathread] DotA 2

[Sarevokcz]

This makes so little sense my head is hurting a bit.


And to be fair, there seems to be one one common misconception in all discussions like this. Inverted gold dependency is a good indicator of a hero's ability to function as a (hard) support. Low gold dependency, however, says absolutely nothing about a hero's ability to carry. The fact that a hero can function with low gold does not mean that high gold is wasted on them.

I dont think people dont know that, after all we saw plenty of traditional "cores" go almost exclusively support. They arent saying "its only viable as support", they are saying "its gonna be played as support and someone else gets the farm" IMO.

[padie]

On Abaddon I normally go

Urn
Phase boots
sange-halberd
MoM
Basher-abys
Crystal-daedalus

If you have alot of hardhitters on the team I dont upgrade sange/crystal/basher and just swap urn for heart after i get those.

[Hermanni]

I dont think people dont know that, after all we saw plenty of traditional "cores" go almost exclusively support. They arent saying "its only viable as support", they are saying "its gonna be played as support and someone else gets the farm" IMO.

Yes, that's the other common sloppy argument in these discussions, 'why not give that farm to a hero that needs it more?' There's no point working on an assumption that your team is always going to have an Anti-Mage who is going to need all the farm on the map. And even if you have a hero that is usually better suited as the primary carry you're still going to want to have at least one secondary carry in most games.

[Lysah]

Just look at my poor Leoric game...roar/lasso/cogs/dead/dead a second time/dead a third time/team is all dead anyway because I'm the only one with items.

[Charge me Doctor]

Just look at my poor Leoric game...roar/lasso/cogs/dead/dead a second time/dead a third time/team is all dead anyway because I'm the only one with items.

I remember in DotA being yelled at for not giving away skadi to a sniper because i played KotL

[Sarevokcz]

Yes, that's the other common sloppy argument in these discussions, 'why not give that farm to a hero that needs it more?' There's no point working on an assumption that your team is always going to have an Anti-Mage who is going to need all the farm on the map. And even if you have a hero that is usually better suited as the primary carry you're still going to want to have at least one secondary carry in most games.

And there is no point working on an assumption that the team doesnt already have core slots filled either. If you have PL and then typical supports like jakiro and CM? sure, have the abba get the farm, but when you already have your core lineup pretty much done, there is no point in excessive farming. And lets be honest, pros arent gonna pick abba as farmer in anything but some rare pocket strats, just like we havent seen naga carry for months.

[Lysah]

Does it even matter what pros do? How does that affect you when you play Dota2?

[Sarevokcz]

Does it even matter what pros do? How does that affect you when you play Dota2?

In which case most games have overabundance of carries, making his entire point moot.

[Lysah]

All the pros know how to do right now is throw their offlane away and send 2 supports to get their 1 carry in safe lane farmed. Of course Abaddon won't get picked in games like this, and that's what Longview was talking about, I believe (trilane Abaddon viability). I'm arguing how he should be played by most people, hey, like this game I just played:

http://dotabuff.com/matches/287286730

[Hermanni]

And there is no point working on an assumption that the team doesnt already have core slots filled either. If you have PL and then typical supports like jakiro and CM? sure, have the abba get the farm, but when you already have your core lineup pretty much done, there is no point in excessive farming. And lets be honest, pros arent gonna pick abba as farmer in anything but some rare pocket strats, just like we havent seen naga carry for months.

When you're discussing the capabilities of a single hero, making counter-intuitive assumptions serves no point. If you're going to run Abaddon as carry, you probably don't want to intentionally pick 2 other melees as hard carries. There's no reason to say 'well if you run this hero as carry instead of support you're fucking other carries over' when there's no reason to think there are other carries.

And what pros pick or do right now is completely irrelevant. Using drafting trends and the copycat scheme known as 'metagame' as an excuse is a joke.

[Glorious Leader]

just out of curiosity did Abaddon even get any representation at all in ti3? I don't agree with the notion that what the pros do shouldn't count, obviously the way pros treat a hero should be a nod to how you and I may want to consider treating him. This isn't a hard rule but if one is trying to recreate success would it not be wise to follow the successful?

[Hermanni]

just out of curiosity did Abaddon even get any representation at all in ti3? I don't agree with the notion that what the pros do shouldn't count, obviously the way pros treat a hero should be a nod to how you and I may want to consider treating him. This isn't a hard rule but if one is trying to recreate success would it not be wise to follow the successful?

Abaddon was not in Captain's Mode in Dota 2 until this week. Same goes to Centaur, TC and Troll.

Obviously it's not a bad idea to be aware of how things are done in competitive circles, but no one should do the mistake of thinking that is the end all be all of dota.

[Longview]

just out of curiosity did Abaddon even get any representation at all in ti3?

he did not get any representation, because he was not in tournament mode. same goes for elder titan, troll warlord, huskar and medusa.

e: im slow btw

[Lysah]

This isn't a hard rule but if one is trying to recreate success would it not be wise to follow the successful?

The winrate in tournaments is only 50%.

[Charge me Doctor]

Abbadon is not his team's "main damage dealer", not even when played as a carry. Abbadon is the same as a Dragon Knight, or a Leoric, or a Bristleback - his job is to run in and be such a nuisance and such a colossal pain in the ass that the enemy team HAS to do something about him... but everything they're to him is something they aren't doing to Abbadon's "important" team members. He isn't there to kill people, not really... he's just there to fuck up the enemy team's positioning and coordination by virtue of being an annoying little shit, which lets his team poop on the enemy team while they're too busy cursing about Frostmourne or whatever.

How is Abbadon's ability to use Aphotic Shield or throw shitcoils around at all affected by him building more aggressively and playing more aggressively? Abbadon's ability to "support" isn't reduced at all by playing him as a carry, but the inverse isn't true - if you build him as a support, you can't play him aggressively.

So knowing that... why would you ever play him as a support?

No ones ability to support reduced by playing as a carry

[Drunkenvalley]

This isn't a hard rule but if one is trying to recreate success would it not be wise to follow the successful?

Why would you? Repeating how pros play would be incredibly dangerous in most pubgames.

There are some overarching trends that make sense, like support Naga and fun tricks like pulling creepwave, but so much of what they do needs to be understood before you go ahead and try and repeat it.

[Charge me Doctor]

Why would you? Repeating how pros play would be incredibly dangerous in most pubgames.

There are some overarching trends that make sense, like support Naga and fun tricks like pulling creepwave, but so much of what they do needs to be understood before you go ahead and try and repeat it.

Yeah, often you expect people juking your sunstrikes when returning home at low health by queing move commands, but no, they don't

[Drunkenvalley]

Yeah, often you expect people juking your sunstrikes when returning home at low health by queing move commands, but no, they don't

Admittedly, a lot of stuff pros did in the past is now simply common knowledge. But some things are just strategies, like trilaning, that requires a bit more tact than "three dudes in a lane"

As an example, Lifestealer+Jakiro+Tidehunter trilane is good against a fair amount of lanes, I imagine. Solo Dark Seer is not one of them.

[PizzaSHARK]

No ones ability to support reduced by playing as a carry

Yeah. So remind me, again - why are people wetting their pants over someone playing Abbadon as a carry, then?

[Charge me Doctor]

Yeah. So remind me, again - why are people wetting their pants over someone playing Abbadon as a carry, then?

Because any kind of CC on him and he is not carry any more and he can't do anyshit about it without BKB but "carry abbadon" don't build BKB for w/e reason