How would you feel about Lor'themar Theron as Warchief?

[Nero Duskwind]

Would Blizzard making Lor'Themar warchief and basically sending a big "F U" to Horde players be considered the epic fist-pump moment for Alliance players?

[Stormdash]

It may be that Blizzard considers Horde players who would take that as a big F U to not be worth marketing to.

[draganid]

its making more and more sense as mop has come along. he was heavily considering defecting to the alliance before the divine bell was stolen from darnassus by the sunreavers. who left some super obvious clue it was their magic that allowed it to happen. why wouldnt they do a better job of covering their tracks? we know that at the end of SoO varian allows the horde to select a new warchief and its obviously is someone they can work with, what if all along, the plan was for lorthemar to become warchief?

[Itisamuh]

People can qq all the way, Lor'thermar as Warchief would be the best option for all the good reasons that players have stated in this thread so far. I'm sorry but it's true. We don't need another Warmonger, or the same old Orc oriented ideology which honestly has ran the Horde into the ground time and time again. The Alliance is running over our capital because of an Orc for God's sake!

Lor'themar has shown great leadership this expansion. With him controlling the Sunwell, and having Sylvanas in check as Warchief, he would also have control over the Plague by default, making sure it DOESN'T get USED any longer. Why can't people understand this? We need to rebuild after this war, not continue the war. Kalimdor could use a rest for a while.

And after a while, we can go have some fun with the Night Elves /evilgrin

Maybe so, but war makes for a more interesting plot than peace, and orcs are the heart of the Horde, much as humans are the heart of the Alliance. I do not want peace between the factions, and neither should anybody else. It would completely destroy the story.

[razorfire]

People can qq all the way, Lor'thermar as Warchief would be the best option for all the good reasons that players have stated in this thread so far. I'm sorry but it's true. We don't need another Warmonger, or the same old Orc oriented ideology which honestly has ran the Horde into the ground time and time again. The Alliance is running over our capital because of an Orc for God's sake!

Lor'themar has shown great leadership this expansion. With him controlling the Sunwell, and having Sylvanas in check as Warchief, he would also have control over the Plague by default, making sure it DOESN'T get USED any longer. Why can't people understand this? We need to rebuild after this war, not continue the war. Kalimdor could use a rest for a while.

And after a while, we can go have some fun with the Night Elves /evilgrin

this thread is still going on? ok I'll just throw out some counterpoints to this, most of the "good reasons" stated have already been countered multiple times and as the comments I made and those made in counter to me both state, no one candidate is really pulling ahead off the arguments being used to promote lor'themar, similar reasonings could be given for any other candidate for warchief along with a much more notable connection to the horde and overall show of loyalty than lor'themar who has, despite the cries that it somehow makes him better, been THE most open to cutting and running until the option was taken from him. he did not choose to directly oppose garrosh until there were no alternatives left that wouldn't result in getting completely annihilated.

in regards to your point of him showing great leadership this expansion...yes...he showed capable leadership for the FIRST TIME in his entire showing as a racial leader, until now every one of his big decisions is the result of other racial leaders pressuring him into action because he's too scared of messing up to do anything. what you don't do if you want to keep a sane and organized group is put someone who only just got the ability to manage their OWN followers to suddenly have power over ALL the members of the group. and further down in your second paragraph...anyone who's chosen to be warchief could tell sylvanas "no, don't do that" it's a matter of if they're actually willing to make sure she doesn't or not. and really she wouldn't have used it quite as much if not forced into so many engagements by garrosh that were, without it, suicide runs (and even then the potency of it is routinely lowered due to orders not to use the same strain as the wrath gate).

and now to comment on the most commonly used defense against people saying it shouldn't be lor'themar... people are pulling the race card, and no I don't mean "HE'S A BLOODELF HE SHOULDN'T LEAD" cause personally if he were an orc I still wouldn't want him to lead given the lore I know about him, not until he's had a lot more time to prove he's going to KEEP his confidence and actually make sound decisions, that kind of rush to put someone in charge is how garrosh got too much power. but what I mean is the argument of "HE'S A BLOODELF, THE HORDE SHOULD GET WITH THE TIMES AND ACCEPT HIM AS LEADER!" how is accepting the person that a specific group likes as leader "getting with the times" any more than selecting a leader from any other race. why does it NEED to be a bloodelf to be "the smart thing for blizzard to do". vol'jin has been with the horde since before the tauren joined and aided in most of its more important times and has never decided to try and join the alliance. baine grew up watching his father lead, helped take a large portion of organizing the rebellion, and has a connection to horde heroes such as rexxar. thrall STARTED the new horde and has proven his ability to lead (and despite what people say about him being peaceful he has proven his ability to beat down an enemy when needed). saurfang has had more active diplomatic ties with the alliance than lor'themar has, he lead a group offensive of ALL the races against an'qiraj, and he's not likely to go and start a war over nothing. so please, tell me, why should your cries of "it needs to be lor'themar, it needs to be a bloodelf" be any more valid than "it shouldn't be lor'themar or a bloodelf"

[Grubjuice]

its making more and more sense as mop has come along. he was heavily considering defecting to the alliance before the divine bell was stolen from darnassus by the sunreavers. who left some super obvious clue it was their magic that allowed it to happen. why wouldnt they do a better job of covering their tracks? we know that at the end of SoO varian allows the horde to select a new warchief and its obviously is someone they can work with, what if all along, the plan was for lorthemar to become warchief?

It is not outside the realm the possibility that it will come to be known that in fact Lor'Themar and Alliance came to an understanding that the blood elves cannot leave the horde but that they can LEAD the Horde, and that this would be in the best interest of the entire world.

[razorfire]

It is not outside the realm the possibility that it will come to be known that in fact Lor'Themar and Alliance came to an understanding that the blood elves cannot leave the horde but that they can LEAD the Horde, and that this would be in the best interest of the entire world.

how is handing control of an organization to the group that just had its chance to leave them taken away from it "in the best interest of the entire world". heck it's not even in the best interest of the alliance because jaina STILL has sunreavers imprisoned in dalaran and lor'themar is, hopefully, not stupid enough to think that just dropping things will make her not snap again.

[Stuntzii]

Would Blizzard making Lor'Themar warchief and basically sending a big "F U" to Horde players be considered the epic fist-pump moment for Alliance players?

Alliance have had their fist pump moment, and you hardly speak for the horde players. Based on the sentiment in this thread, you're one of the few who has an issue with Lor'themar being warchief. Speak for yourself or not at all.

[Stuntzii]

Maybe so, but war makes for a more interesting plot than peace, and orcs are the heart of the Horde, much as humans are the heart of the Alliance. I do not want peace between the factions, and neither should anybody else. It would completely destroy the story.

As I stated to someone else, speak for yourself or not at all. I'm personally sick of the war. I'm fine with the story moving on. I'm not afraid of change or stuck in mental loophole where the story is only good if it's orc v human until the end of time. Did you play MoP at all? If not I'll let you in on a big secret. The legion is returning, you'll get plenty of war. Also, there's a lot more factions out there than just the horde and alliance. If this game were meant to be OvH we wouldn't have other big bads like Arthas or Deathwing or Kil'Jaeden or Sarg down the road etc.

[Deleted]

You can't survive in Azeroth without friends.
And what third party should he join?
Joining the Burning Legion is Orc and Kaldorei-territory.

The winds of rebellion were already up when he decided to join the Alliance. Working up with Sylvanas to deal with the Kor'kron and then support his allies on Kalimdor was the other choice he had. The choice that he took after being forced to.

[draganid]

It is not outside the realm the possibility that it will come to be known that in fact Lor'Themar and Alliance came to an understanding that the blood elves cannot leave the horde but that they can LEAD the Horde, and that this would be in the best interest of the entire world.

this is what i meant, lorthemar realized that peace between alliance and horde is whats best for his people and that switching sides still leaves them as enemies of the horde. by being in charge of the horde with varians support, he is essentially varians puppet in charge of the horde.

happy yet alliance?

[tinyninja]

The winds of rebellion were already up when he decided to join the Alliance. Working up with Sylvanas to deal with the Kor'kron and then support his allies on Kalimdor was the other choice he had. The choice that he took after being forced to.

Actually the rebellion was nothing but empty threats at that point and the soon to be rebel leader was assumed to be dead for the first half of the expansion. When Vol'jin actually starts the revolution, it's made clear that Lor'themar was ready to fully support him after cleaning up the Isle of Thunder.

[Stuntzii]

this thread is still going on? ok I'll just throw out some counterpoints to this, most of the "good reasons" stated have already been countered multiple times

No they really haven't. In fact most of your counter points have been blasted out of the water time and time again, and most of your points apply to any potential candiate.

similar reasonings could be given for any other candidate for warchief along with a much more notable connection to the horde and overall show of loyalty than lor'themar who has, despite the cries that it somehow makes him better, been THE most open to cutting and running until the option was taken from him. he did not choose to directly oppose garrosh until there were no alternatives left that wouldn't result in getting completely annihilated.

Yeah cause Vo'jin never had thoughts of ditching the horde.

in regards to your point of him showing great leadership this expansion...yes...he showed capable leadership for the FIRST TIME in his entire showing as a racial leader, until now every one of his big decisions is the result of other racial leaders pressuring him into action because he's too scared of messing up to do anything.

Which is the fault of the devs. Just like Rexxar was supposed to be scene in the Barrens patch, he got cut. Don't blame the character for what the devs can squeeze in, or not. Sylvanas has been mostly absent this xp, that's not her fault, that's the fault of the devs.

As for the 'too scared' comment, you want to make points, make factual points. If you can't make a point without bashing him, you already lost.

what you don't do if you want to keep a sane and organized group is put someone who only just got the ability to manage their OWN followers to suddenly have power over ALL the members of the group. and further down in your second paragraph...anyone who's chosen to be warchief could tell sylvanas "no, don't do that" it's a matter of if they're actually willing to make sure she doesn't or not. and really she wouldn't have used it quite as much if not forced into so many engagements by garrosh that were, without it, suicide runs (and even then the potency of it is routinely lowered due to orders not to use the same strain as the wrath gate).

Lor'themar has been leading the Blood Elves since TBC. He may not have been in the spot light until now, but he's been leading them.

Where in the game is it said she only uses it because she was pushed by Garrosh? And sure anyone could tell her not to, it's a matter of who she'll listen to. Again, fail argument because it applies to ANYONE. This argument doesn't state why Lor'themar SPECIFICALLY is not fit to lead.

and now to comment on the most commonly used defense against people saying it shouldn't be lor'themar... people are pulling the race card, and no I don't mean "HE'S A BLOODELF HE SHOULDN'T LEAD" cause personally if he were an orc I still wouldn't want him to lead given the lore I know about him, not until he's had a lot more time to prove he's going to KEEP his confidence and actually make sound decisions, that kind of rush to put someone in charge is how garrosh got too much power. but what I mean is the argument of "HE'S A BLOODELF, THE HORDE SHOULD GET WITH THE TIMES AND ACCEPT HIM AS LEADER!" how is accepting the person that a specific group likes as leader "getting with the times" any more than selecting a leader from any other race. why does it NEED to be a bloodelf to be "the smart thing for blizzard to do".

Capitalization, punctuation and breaking points into more appropriate paragraphs makes my eyes bleed less and as such able to have a discussion with you easier.

Again, you're hold a real world problem (how and when the devs decide to put him into the spotlight) against who the character is. Thrall was untested and he did fine... at least until he made Garrosh warchief. So again your argument fails. The only other warchief we've had was a compeltely untested pup who at the end of his career put the worst possible person in charge of the Horde. Lor'themar couldn't do much worse than that.

vol'jin has been with the horde since before the tauren joined and aided in most of its more important times and has never decided to try and join the alliance.

I fail to see the point here. Vol'jin has never been a fan of the alliance (in fact his original ptr text had him speaking down to the alliance during the barrens stuff). You also assume he saw going to the alliance as an option. Who's to say that if in the past his trolls and the alliance had been allies, he wouldn't have thought about it? He thought about leaving the horde and I argue he only didn't go to the alliance because he doesn't like them and knew they'd just as soon kill his people as allow them into the alliance. You're making comparisons where they don't exist because your argument assumes both men had the same options available, they didn't. The elves were once part of the alliance, the trolls never were.

baine grew up watching his father lead, helped take a large portion of organizing the rebellion, and has a connection to horde heroes such as rexxar.

So this automatically means he's a better potential leader than Lor'themar who has connections with um... the alliance. I'd take a guy who can peace-talk with the alliance over some hybrid who has had very little to no character growth in this entire game.

If you want to use Lor'themars lack of spotlight moments as a point against him, don't use knowing Rexxar as a point in favor of anyone. Lor'themar has had more time in the spotlight than Rexxar, so again another failed argument.

thrall STARTED the new horde and has proven his ability to lead (and despite what people say about him being peaceful he has proven his ability to beat down an enemy when needed).

Yes and as I already stated, was a nobody until he was made someone by leading the horde, and he also made the single largest mistake in the history of the Azerothian horde.

saurfang has had more active diplomatic ties with the alliance than lor'themar has, he lead a group offensive of ALL the races against an'qiraj, and he's not likely to go and start a war over nothing. so please, tell me, why should your cries of "it needs to be lor'themar, it needs to be a bloodelf" be any more valid than "it shouldn't be lor'themar or a bloodelf"

But Saur is still an orc, and his people were never actually part OF the alliance. Dying beside them against the orcs.

I don't argue it has to be Lor'themar simply based on race. If you go back and look at my posts, I've listed specific reason why he should and the only time his race has come up as a factor is simply because his people were once part of the alliance.

Simply stating he should/shouldn't for no other reason than his race is personal preference and nothing more. It's like saying Obama never should have been elected or should have been elected because he has african heritage. It's about who the man is, not what genes make him up.

So again, most of your 'good reasons why he shouldn't' have been countered multiple times.

Looking forward to your next post where you argue the same points that could apply to any of the potential leaders and still fail to argue:

WHY LOR'THEMAR SPECIFICALLY SHOULD NOT BE WARCHIEF

Because so far, you've failed at doing that.

[Deleted]

Actually the rebellion was nothing but empty threats at that point and the soon to be rebel leader was assumed to be dead for the first half of the expansion. When Vol'jin actually starts the revolution, it's made clear that Lor'themar was ready to fully support him after cleaning up the Isle of Thunder.

The winds of rebellion actually started in Tides of War. The Razor Hill Reunion was the first rebellious act.

[tinyninja]

The winds of rebellion actually started in Tides of War. The Razor Hill Reunion was the first rebellious act.

What the hell are "winds of rebellion" and why are you throwing this term around like it means something important? It means nothing but intent but until it's actually acted upon there is no rebellion.

[Deleted]

What the hell are "winds of rebellion" and why are you throwing this term around like it means something important? It means nothing but intent but until it's actually acted upon there is no rebellion.

Talking against the current regime, planning to act against it is "winds of rebellion". The thought of rebellion within the Horde didn't started overnight with Vol'jin's assassination attempt. The attempt was actually to stop such action.

[Combatbutler]

The winds of rebellion actually started in Tides of War. The Razor Hill Reunion was the first rebellious act.

You mean meeting in an inn, saying well this sucked we should have done it differently. They were displeased and talked indeed, but it didn't cross their minds to overthrow Garrosh. Lor'themar and Sylvanas acted more rebellious in that book than Vol'jin and Baine for the mere fact, that they did not show up as Garrosh had demanded.

[Heldamon]

I'd prefer Dezco.

[Deleted]

You mean meeting in an inn, saying well this sucked we should have done it differently. They were displeased and talked indeed, but it didn't cross their minds to overthrow Garrosh. Lor'themar and Sylvanas acted more rebellious in that book than Vol'jin and Baine for the mere fact, that they did not show up as Garrosh had demanded.

Exactly. Like I said, Lor'themar and Sylvanas could deal with the Kor'kron in Undercity and then move on to support the Kalimdor rebels. But, by joining the Alliance, he would even left his true ally, the Forsaken, alone.

[Combatbutler]

Exactly. Like I said, Lor'themar and Sylvanas could deal with the Kor'kron in Undercity and then move on to support the Kalimdor rebels. But, by joining the Alliance, he would even left his true ally, the Forsaken, alone.

The relations between forsaken and blood elven leadership is strained to say the least, he chose a path that would ensure the minimum amount of casualties among his people, he tried several times to reign Garrosh in, but that ultimately failed and left him little choice but to consider old allegiances.