When did Garrosh became this evil?

[Abstieg]

So you guys are saying that Kosak wasn't implying, 'Oh yeah, Garrosh had his own reasons for Stonetalon', but 'Oh yeah, we fucked up his characterization lol'

Considering his previous statement on the subject, yes.

[babo7000]

You honestly believe that his advisor could pull strategic/tacitcal decisions for the Horde armies all out of eye-sight from their Overlord?
For something people always claim its cited absolutly nowhere, yet Garrosh being hailed as a hero for his success in Northrend is read everywhere in excerts concerning Hellscream

http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Foolish_Endeavors

http://www.wowhead.com/item=35941/letter-from-saurfang

Garrosh was brash and aggressive in Northrend, as he is now. The reason why things didn't go as bad as they are now are due to the help of his advisors, which as you may know, he has now killed/replaced.

[Frozenbeef]

Tides of war..that's the exact point he turned from being ruthless to being evil.

[DrMcNinja]

Dave Kosak said in an interview with Jesse Cox that he was like that from the beginning. It just got more and more extreme

[Dreknar20]

http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Foolish_Endeavors

http://www.wowhead.com/item=35941/letter-from-saurfang

'It is unfortunate, then, that Hellscream employs such savage tactics. As victory approaches, Hellscream gains further justification for his methods,'
And that proves that Saurfang somehow under-handedly took reins of the Warsong Offensive how?

If Saurfang was so inclined on this you think he would have mentioned this at all? Instead of having Thrall, Cairne, the whole Horde praise Garrosh for his achievements

[babo7000]

Kosak then goes on to describe Garrosh's progression as a "line" and not a "right turn". So nothing about Kosak's statements suggest any inconsistency. Stonetalon was a waste because it was against civilians.

Urgh, I dunno i'm being stubborn, but I just can't accept Stonetalon. It was against civilians yes, but if you remember Theramore, he had every intention to kill civilians. The ships weren't a warning to leave, they were an invitation to come in.

Stonetalon just feels so, out there. It feels like Garrosh accomplished a lot more by killing Krom'Gar and being behind the scenes the entire time.

I don't know your probably tight, I'm taking this to seriously.

EDIT: Right not tight. Though I won't judge.
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'It is unfortunate, then, that Hellscream employs such savage tactics. As victory approaches, Hellscream gains further justification for his methods,'
And that proves that Saurfang somehow under-handedly took reins of the Warsong Offensive how?

If Saurfang was so inclined on this you think he would have mentioned this at all? Instead of having Thrall, Cairne, the whole Horde praise Garrosh for his achievements

Welp, re-read that letter, and realized a good chunk of my own in-my-head fanfic was clouding my memory on those quest. Foot----> O:

[Aquamonkey]

Urgh, I dunno i'm being stubborn, but I just can't accept Stonetalon. It was against civilians yes, but if you remember Theramore, he had every intention to kill civilians. The ships weren't a warning to leave, they were an invitation to come in.

Stonetalon just feels so, out there. It feels like Garrosh accomplished a lot more by killing Krom'Gar and being behind the scenes the entire time.

I don't know your probably tight, I'm taking this to seriously.

Garrosh's intentions at Theramore had nothing to do with killing civilians. His entire plan was to bait and kill as many Alliance troops as possible. Kosak even says, "Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape."

Garrosh parked his troops in plain view outside Theramore for a week, with such an overwhelming force that Theramore couldn't stand a chance without reinforcements. Any civilians who wanted to stay in the city were suicidal or combatants. He ordered his fleet to stay just outside Theramore's waters and not to engage any Alliance ships. When they arrived, he ordered his fleet out of the area completely. No blockade or anything. Garrosh never made any moves to stop anyone trying to flee the city.

The first time Garrosh ordered Alliance ships be destroyed was after the battle had already started and was preparing for the Mana Bomb drop.

[Deleted]

He saw the failures and shame of nonorcish races and also gained a lot of power... a combination of these 2 is highly corrupting

[Tenjen]

stresses and pride of leadership convincing him more and more that more and more excesses are acceptable and who applies to "honorable battle". His morals and integrity crumbling under the pressure and power. A sliding slope of travesties.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Was the Warsong Offensive not successful in Northrend? Was the Scourge not defeated?
They established strongholds through Northrend and pushed to the gates of Icecrown

BS, the dragon flights pushed him from southern central northrend, Varimathras betrayal weakened Arthas at the wrathgate but also annihilated both horde and alliance there, central northrend was taken by the Kirin Tor, the hordes presence in Storm Peaks is mostly a crashed zeppelin and a few taunka. Grizzly hills was just a mess with both alliance and horde pestering one another for lumber. South-Eastern Northrend was mostly an Alliance/Forsaken/Taunka victory. Sholozar Basin, Zul'Drak and Icecrown were all taken by neutral factions. Icecrown in fact cost the horde dearly, because Saurfang didn't have this one for a change and people just used garrys bs tactics there and didn't make it past Mord'rethar: The Death Gate, when they tried to gank some alliance. I give him Borean Tundra (building on a haunted shore and on top of nerubian ruines is still kinda dump but thanks to saurfang he managed) and the western part of dragon blight where he built that little fort.

Seriously. I get it you like garry and orcs, but come on. Calling him a great military leader was just out of blizzards ass to make him sound better. As someone said, Saurfang was working overtime there and is probably partly at fault that Thrall made this terrible descision in the first place.

The scourge was never defeated btw, they were contained in popsicle land and the major victory was achieved by someone that had enough brain to unite people and besiege ICC properly.

[babo7000]

Garrosh's intentions at Theramore had nothing to do with killing civilians. His entire plan was to bait and kill as many Alliance troops as possible. Kosak even says, "Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape."

Garrosh parked his troops in plain view outside Theramore for a week, with such an overwhelming force that Theramore couldn't stand a chance without reinforcements. Any civilians who wanted to stay in the city were suicidal or combatants. He ordered his fleet to stay just outside Theramore's waters and not to engage any Alliance ships. When they arrived, he ordered his fleet out of the area completely. No blockade or anything. Garrosh never made any moves to stop anyone trying to flee the city.

The first time Garrosh ordered Alliance ships be destroyed was after the battle had already started, he had retreated, and was sending in the Mana Bomb drop.

Oh yeah I know it wasn't a civilian target (god not these debates again lol), I'm just saying Garrosh never considered civilians when he was planning to drop the bomb. He wouldn't have gone out of his way to kill them, but wouldn't be bothered if they died, was what I was trying to say.

[Deleted]

Well Blizzard needed something to get people talking about WoW in a good light when everyone was getting hysterical about sub drops in Cataclysm. Thus this pointless, rushed and silly storyline of Garrosh being a last boss came to be.

[Cooper]

'It is unfortunate, then, that Hellscream employs such savage tactics. As victory approaches, Hellscream gains further justification for his methods,'
And that proves that Saurfang somehow under-handedly took reins of the Warsong Offensive how?

If Saurfang was so inclined on this you think he would have mentioned this at all? Instead of having Thrall, Cairne, the whole Horde praise Garrosh for his achievements

There's a quest - I don't remember if it's part of that line or not - where Garrosh orders you to kill a necromancer without any support whatsoever, despite the Forsaken reporting that they'll need reinforcements. When you finally get to the Necromancer, he incapacitates you, and Saurfang shows up to rescue you. Once the Necromancer is dead, Saurfang tells you and the Forsaken you're with to not mention his involvement. So no, he would not have mentioned it.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Oh yeah I know it wasn't a civilian target (god not these debates again lol), I'm just saying Garrosh never considered civilians when he was planning to drop the bomb. He wouldn't have gone out of his way to kill them, but wouldn't be bothered if they died, was what I was trying to say.

That is only partly true. They could have easily sunk the ship that carried the civilians out there, it was still a semi-military target. This could have provoked them even more maybe, but he let them go. That was actually somewhat decent. When he first set foot on Pandaland there was nothing left of that though.

There's a quest - I don't remember if it's part of that line or not - where Garrosh orders you to kill a necromancer without any support whatsoever, despite the Forsaken reporting that they'll need reinforcements. When you finally get to the Necromancer, he incapacitates you, and Saurfang shows up to rescue you. Once the Necromancer is dead, Saurfang tells you and the Forsaken you're with to not mention his involvement. So no, he would not have mentioned it.

It's also implied (or even mentioned?) that the missive you receive in Dragon Blight is from Saurfang who keeps pulling strings to guide this somewhere constructive.

[Vayshan]

He's power drunk.

[Dreknar20]

He wouldn't have gone out of his way to kill them, but wouldn't be bothered if they died, was what I was trying to say.

i wouldnt consider that evil at all, that would be completely normal

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despite the Forsaken reporting that they'll need reinforcements.

reinforcements he didnt have to send, except the hero

[Volitar]

When Blizzard hamfisted this story into action.

[GKLeatherCraft]

So i'm lvl'ing a blood elf atm and just finished the Stonetalon questline, and I'm wandering does blizzard have just very bad character development or did I miss something?

This is the dialogue after you drop the bomb on some druid base:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4RTB5LxJ0U
Can someone explain to me how he became from this crude but honorable warchief to this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slzQOyS5TqQ

Blizzard pretty much stated that he is not corrupted or influenced in any case so wtf?

Yeah, How unrealistic, Blizzard messing up as usual, Making stuff up that people can change....Wait..... -.-'

[Aquamonkey]

Oh yeah I know it wasn't a civilian target (god not these debates again lol), I'm just saying Garrosh never considered civilians when he was planning to drop the bomb. He wouldn't have gone out of his way to kill them, but wouldn't be bothered if they died, was what I was trying to say.

Probably. What Krom'gar needed was a good PR spin to say the druids had WMDs, then Garrosh might not have dropped him off the bridge.

[Dreknar20]

BS

Why?
The Horde established stongholds, that faced repeated assualts but still stand strong, then pushed toward the Dragonblight, isolating Azol Nerub while the Alliance dealt with Naxx.
Then after the Wrathgate fiasco they went with airships and with the Argent Crusade/Ebon Blade had their grand finale
Hardly sounds like utter failure to me