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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    My statement was based on armories and conversations with top paladins which indicates that 10-holys go with all out spirit and 25-pallies with little bit less spirit and more mastery. It was the case on progress and on farm.
    From what I know on progress 25 went all out with spirit this past tier also.

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    From what I know on progress 25 went all out with spirit this past tier also.
    Not all what I've heard but I may have generalized too much. Sorry bout that.

  3. #1003


    My interpretation of my chart is:

    -Dropping Spirit like it’s hot with Selfless Healer will top output when HR and LoD hit 6 targets. But if you loose LoD targets it drops quickly.

    -For Sacred Shield there is little gain or difference in stacking Mastery/Haste. Break points for extra SS tick was meaningless.

    -There is no clear benefit from hitting the EF breakpoints either (15%, 25%, 35%, 45%) largely due to the fact so much of our healing is based on how many targets our HR hits more so than the extra EF tick.

    -EF continues to look the most versatile tier 45 talent but its scaling with haste is not linear and sticking with Mastery will give the most reliable HPS boost.

    -SH can be very powerful and is the least mana intensive spec but to pull it off you need a stacked raid. For 25man if you can count on 6 targets getting hit by LoD/HR you won’t be in a bad place in comparison to say, SS.

    -Going no spirit leaves you with 4k less mp5. SH spec is 11k mp5 cheaper to execute than EF rotation with double HR.

    Edits: Corrected chart. Red is Not True!
    Last edited by bouchbagfett; 2013-09-05 at 01:07 AM.

  4. #1004
    So, from those charts, for EF / SS the choice between haste and mastery is largely irrelevant from a pure hps standpoint. The difference in numbers is small enough not to matter. The difference will be in the other tangible benefits. Mastery will still allow you to spam heals for shields on stacked fights. Haste will allow you to be more reactive.

    I'm still stuck for a decision on 10s. I think ultimately I will have to try both mastery and haste and see how they work for me personally.

    Out of interest what is the HS cooldown at the top haste level you use (I'm assuming you're using raid buffs etc that will need to be discounted)? The benefits of a short cooldown HS in 10s aren't reflected too well by simple hps. Even now I find myself waiting on the HS cooldown half a year after I lost the set bonus. If I would get even close to 4 seconds again I'd jump at the chance.

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    So, from those charts, for EF / SS the choice between haste and mastery is largely irrelevant from a pure hps standpoint. The difference in numbers is small enough not to matter. The difference will be in the other tangible benefits. Mastery will still allow you to spam heals for shields on stacked fights. Haste will allow you to be more reactive.

    I'm still stuck for a decision on 10s. I think ultimately I will have to try both mastery and haste and see how they work for me personally.

    Out of interest what is the HS cooldown at the top haste level you use (I'm assuming you're using raid buffs etc that will need to be discounted)? The benefits of a short cooldown HS in 10s aren't reflected too well by simple hps. Even now I find myself waiting on the HS cooldown half a year after I lost the set bonus. If I would get even close to 4 seconds again I'd jump at the chance.

    I think a balance between both mastery and haste will be best over just going completely one over the other. I don't see fully going haste as beneficial, just mostly to meet certain breakpoints and then mastery the rest of the way. I will probably be switching most of my gems to focusing on Int though.

    Kolori posted the HS breakpoints in the other thread.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post21834063

    I don't think going for the 4 second breakpoint would be beneficial. 5.5 and 5 second haste levels are doable though.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    So, from those charts, for EF / SS the choice between haste and mastery is largely irrelevant from a pure hps standpoint. The difference in numbers is small enough not to matter. The difference will be in the other tangible benefits. Mastery will still allow you to spam heals for shields on stacked fights. Haste will allow you to be more reactive.

    I'm still stuck for a decision on 10s. I think ultimately I will have to try both mastery and haste and see how they work for me personally.

    Out of interest what is the HS cooldown at the top haste level you use (I'm assuming you're using raid buffs etc that will need to be discounted)? The benefits of a short cooldown HS in 10s aren't reflected too well by simple hps. Even now I find myself waiting on the HS cooldown half a year after I lost the set bonus. If I would get even close to 4 seconds again I'd jump at the chance.
    Getting HS down to 4 seconds without CDs would take 50% haste from gear, or 21250 rating. 4.5 would take 33% haste, or 14167 rating. Chances are you can hit the 4.5 mark if you really wanted, but beyond that the gains aren't exactly stellar.

    If you're angling for an SS or EF breakpoint in the 14000 range, EF gets its 55% breakpoint (assuming SoI and spell haste buff) at 14535 haste. SS has a breakpoint at 50% spell haste, which is at 12688 assuming SoI and RB. Its next breakpoint is at 70%, which is 20053 haste rating from gear with SoI and RB.

    Or if you want to look at any of the EF and SS breakpoints (ignoring Divine Favor being up) then Theck did the math on that here.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-09-02 at 11:37 PM.
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  7. #1007
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    So i'm prob going after 20.5% haste on gear . With a raid buff that should get HS to 5 sec and EF it's next tick. Then i'll go after mastery and perhgaps even crit over haste gear at that point as long as the spirit feels right. If not then crit will be last of coarse. I will eat/flask intel and play gemming by ear ( likely to be all intel as well unless spirit is a problem)

    Going after more haste then that seems pointless as it hits both break points pretty well there and could bring about a nice balance.
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  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by dragconus View Post
    So i'm prob going after 20.5% haste on gear . With a raid buff that should get HS to 5 sec and EF it's next tick. Then i'll go after mastery and perhgaps even crit over haste gear at that point as long as the spirit feels right. If not then crit will be last of coarse. I will eat/flask intel and play gemming by ear ( likely to be all intel as well unless spirit is a problem)

    Going after more haste then that seems pointless as it hits both break points pretty well there and could bring about a nice balance.
    Did you include SoI's 10% spell haste in your calculations? If you're angling for the 25% breakpoint then with the raid buff and SoI that BP is met at 3506 haste, or 8.25%. Even if you meant to go for the 35% BP, you actually won't need 20.5 haste on gear to get to there. With the raid buff and SoI active, you'll only need 7170 haste, or ~16.87%. (See http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/11/21...for-tankadins/ for full tables). That would put HS's CD at 5.13 seconds. The extra 1330 haste to get HS down to 5 seconds shouldn't be much of a problem though. But yes, after that the returns don't really seem to be there.
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  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Did you include SoI's 10% spell haste in your calculations? If you're angling for the 25% breakpoint then with the raid buff and SoI that BP is met at 3506 haste, or 8.25%. Even if you meant to go for the 35% BP, you actually won't need 20.5 haste on gear to get to there. With the raid buff and SoI active, you'll only need 7170 haste, or ~16.87%. (See http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/11/21...for-tankadins/ for full tables). That would put HS's CD at 5.13 seconds. The extra 1330 haste to get HS down to 5 seconds shouldn't be much of a problem though. But yes, after that the returns don't really seem to be there.
    Forgot all about the 10% from soi. I'll have to relook at it since I know SoI and raid buff don't effect HS.
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  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by dragconus View Post
    Forgot all about the 10% from soi. I'll have to relook at it since I know SoI and raid buff don't effect HS.
    I already gave you the info in that post. 7170 haste will get you to EF's 35% breakpoint with SoI and the raid buff. Another 1330 haste (which adds up to 8500) will get you to 20% for HS's 5 second CD.
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  11. #1011
    Quote Originally Posted by dragconus View Post
    Getting my HS down to 4 sec would make me unstoppable in a pvp/pve quick dps situation. But would be way to demanding getting to. I'm still going to go for 20.5% haste on gear though . If it feels questionable after that then i'll make some other changes. Crit is kinda ehh anyway but at some point after the sweet spot crit will be better then haste
    There is no need to get to 20.5% for EF or for HS. Where on earth are you getting the extra .5 from? Unless you're accounting for 20ms lag or something?

    Getting HS down to 4 seconds requires 50% haste (21250 rating). Not likely to happen, nor would it make you unstoppable. It would likely make for great burst potential with HA, SH, and the HS and Harsh Words glyphs though.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-09-03 at 02:21 PM.
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  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    There is no need to get to 20.5% for EF or for HS. Where on earth are you getting the extra .5 from? Unless you're accounting for 20ms lag or something?

    Getting HS down to 4 seconds requires 50% haste (21250 rating). Not likely to happen, nor would it make you unstoppable. It would likely make for great burst potential with HA, SH, and the HS and Harsh Words glyphs though.
    I didn't read everything at once .I for some reason thought HS would break down like hot break points instead of like spells so a 5.13 time on HS will be fine . The .5 % was in fact for lag.

    And I did say quick situations . Heroics, duels ect. And I would actually use sanctified wrath with it and just HS Denounce HS denounce as at that point it would refresh that fast. I used to do it when we had the four sec set bonus. I was in crap gear doing 130k+ on heroic bosses. Ah the good times haha.
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  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I think a balance between both mastery and haste will be best over just going completely one over the other. I don't see fully going haste as beneficial, just mostly to meet certain breakpoints and then mastery the rest of the way. I will probably be switching most of my gems to focusing on Int though.

    Kolori posted the HS breakpoints in the other thread.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post21834063

    I don't think going for the 4 second breakpoint would be beneficial. 5.5 and 5 second haste levels are doable though.
    You have to give up an insane amount of mastery for 5s CD on HS, so I wouldn't bother going for it. I might go for 5.5, but we'll see.

  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    You have to give up an insane amount of mastery for 5s CD on HS, so I wouldn't bother going for it. I might go for 5.5, but we'll see.
    It really isn't that insane. I'll be giving up more to go for int over mastery. Playing it by ear and haven't decided yet.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-09-04 at 01:39 AM.

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    It really isn't that insane. I'll be giving up more to go for int over mastery. Playing it by ear and haven't decided yet.
    Not sure what your definition of insane is, but I was playing around with it on PTR trying to get to the 5s CD and I had to reforge every single piece of gear to haste and I still wasn't there - so I would have to re-gem as well. To me that is an insane amount of mastery to give up. Not worth it considering the numbers don't even show a significant boost to HPS by doing so.

  16. #1016
    Insane is determining your level of haste based off of a nice even cd of holy shock. I don't even know why anyone would ever discuss haste levels in that relation. That is just not how you play a holy pally. #doingitwrong

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by Bythelights View Post
    Insane is determining your level of haste based off of a nice even cd of holy shock. I don't even know why anyone would ever discuss haste levels in that relation. That is just not how you play a holy pally. #doingitwrong
    Listen to ^ this guy. He's #1 holy pally in the US right now.

    On a side note, I was thinking about just rolling with SH and since almost every piece of gear has spirit on it, just reforge the spirit to haste until you get like ~9.5-10k spirit. That should be plenty of haste. Getting 8.5k haste is really not even a challenge right now. So that would bring HS down to 5 sec and idk what to judgement (i think the same). So a HS HR J LoD rotation and all of a sudden your numbers are big even a not that stacked fight.

  18. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sashwa View Post
    Listen to ^ this guy. He's #1 holy pally in the US right now.
    He's #1 holy pally by your standards I guess? Didn't know there was a rank of best holy pallys out there :P and just because he does good on the meter doesn't make his opinion better than others. In fact, his reply to this thread doesn't add anything but what it looks a trolling attempt.

    On topic: I like the fact that we have another stat to work around, adds some complexity to the gearing up part as well as versatility. Haste and mastery are both good stats now and I will probably aim for some sort of balance, aiming for 14ticks of EF, lowering HS cd to 5sec, and then get as much mastery as possible.

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by carinyitus View Post
    In fact, his reply to this thread doesn't add anything but what it looks a trolling attempt.
    He makes a good point. There is no point at balancing your haste around an even 5sec HS CD. What do you gain over 5.1? As your haste scales up so does your HR cast time and thus your rotation does not benefit at all from the 5sec HS.

    HS#1 @ 0sec -> HR#1 @ 1.1sec -> HR#2 @ 2.9sec -> LoD/EF @ 4.7 -> HS#2 @5.8sec. (this is at 35% haste). So what do you gain from the 5sec HS cd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sashwa View Post
    On a side note, I was thinking about just rolling with SH and since almost every piece of gear has spirit on it, just reforge the spirit to haste until you get like ~9.5-10k spirit. That should be plenty of haste.
    Selfless Healer is the only tier 45 talent that really has a true difference in stat scaling. Mastery scales much better with SH.

  20. #1020
    1 Intelect is bringing higher healing output than 2 mastery raiting correct? Anyone can say by how much? For EF spec.

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