1. #3961
    Deleted
    No information I gave was inaccurate.

    There was an implication in my post that the raid leader, or at least their palatank, should be aware of the 30% nerf to SS and 40% boost to EF coming in the patch.

    I don't want to argue with you, particularly on a day in which you are in a bad mood. But as it happens I do disagree with your general rule of thumb to stick with SS until 4pct16. I prefer the mechanics of SS, an absorb rather than a HoT, but the difference in the numbers after the patch is just too big. Given that EF will have 3-4 times the throughput of SS, it is likely to give you more survivability than SS. Theck's favored survivability indicator, TMI, clearly favors SS in 5.3 but EF in 5.4.

    http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/09/04/ef-you/

    As Theck says, the rebalancing looks too much, so that we are going from one no-brainer talent to another. (It may vary by fight, but the differences are so big, I know what my default will be). But I am happy for us to agree to disagree and let readers make their own minds up.

    I suspect Theck's new weak auras will support both SS and EF tracking.

  2. #3962
    There are still 2 problems with EF before you get the 4p:

    Having to spend HP on it which would otherwise be used to mitigate damage.
    It being a heal rather than an absorb.

    Yes it does provide more overall healing, but an absorb and a higher uptime on a percentage based damage reduction are just that much more valuable.

  3. #3963
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Now your post makes alot more sense.

    I just hate it when people give answers without taking into account who they are talking too in regards to experience / raiding environment. That happens way too much, because people tend to repeat what they have read without thinking too much about if it's actually helpful or not.

    You cant give players who are "progressing" on normal ToT encounter this late into the game the same answers as you would give players wo are progressing at 7/13 HC at this point.

    While you are right with what you say, I don't think its good in this context. I value Theck's research and information and I rate them quite highly. But you cant just take his stuff and apply it to every situation there is. Those are modelled ideal situations. It doesn't account for your healers constantly overhealing you because they just don't know any better. It doesnt account for normal raids using 3 or even 4 healers in 10 man normal raids. And so forth and so on.

    In the OP's situation, he has a really inexperienced paladin - who doesn't even use Haste and has very low haste levels (in that case, those EF vs SS numbers shift ALOT from that Theck has modelled). He has basic rotational problems on top of all that. In his situation, you can't tell him "EF will have the higher throughput in 5.4". Best case is, OP ignores you. Worst case is, OP actually tells his Paladin exactly what you said - "EF has higher troughput than SS in 5.4". Now the Paladin stops using SS and takes EF instead when 5.4 hits. And believe me, he doesn't know how to exactly game it / use it, because he doesn't even know the basics of his own class. So what you have done here is - even though you meant good and your statement was correct - you have actually hurt their raid, because he Paladin now does even more mistakes than what he would have with SS (that's that I firmly believe).

    So yes, we can agree to disagree here. I might be totally wrong. But I also might be totally right. And that's the only thing I'm asking - that people don't try to give the best answers based on the current Sim, but that they give the best answer based on the situation.

    Like I said, bad mood + reading the same answers over and over again just let to my "outburst" if you might call it that. (I dont think I did offend you, but If I did, I'm really sorry for that). It wasn't directed at you as a person or the stuff you say in general.
    RL, GM and DK Tank for Guild redacted, EU-Gorgonnash
    Chars: Blood DK / Prot Paladin

    Battle Tag: Riemu#2789

  4. #3964
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I'd be shocked if his APM was even half of what's expected, and if he had a ShotR uptime in double digits.
    This question has popped up a couple times in my head the last week, what would an average APM be for a heroic raider, or hastebuild protadin if you will ?
    Been watching lots of sc2 tournaments and it got me wondering.

  5. #3965
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    This question has popped up a couple times in my head the last week, what would an average APM be for a heroic raider, or hastebuild protadin if you will ?
    Been watching lots of sc2 tournaments and it got me wondering.
    60-75 in pure ability usage?

  6. #3966
    Including ShoR hits probably around 70-75 spells cast per minute, because that is restricted by the global cooldown of 1 second (most will be getting close to it by now). But they'll be hitting the buttons a lot more than that to get the ability off as soon as it comes off cooldown and it doesn't take talents such as DP into consideration, where you get more ShoR/WoG/EF casts per holy power spent.

  7. #3967
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    60-75 in pure ability usage?
    I'd say that's an upper bound for a Korean.

    For a mere mortal, in 5.3 (with 1.5sec GCDs on LH and SS), and assuming ~40-45% haste, you'd be looking at approx 1.1sec GCDs, call it 1.2 with SS/t90 factored in. That's 50 GCD's, plus another 10-12 ShotR casts (off-GCD), so 60-62?

    in 5.4 with EF (or SS, now fixed to hasted GCD), 50% haste, good DP/GCAS procs and crazyaznfingers could see as high as 60+16-20 = 76-80 APM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #3968
    Deleted
    So 60-75 seems about right then given I'm currently at 48.x% haste and using DP + Holy Prism.

  9. #3969
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    So 60-75 seems about right then given I'm currently at 48.x% haste and using DP + Holy Prism.
    To be fair, it isn't really possible to get much higher due to the GCD. It isn't like Starcraft or WCIII where you can start three buildings, create 10 units and send some units to a location in 1-2 seconds and being able to do this faster is a significant advantage.

  10. #3970
    Including movement, off gcd abilities (ShoR) and button mashing it should be several 100's
    Don't really think it should be compared to RTS games since most of it comes from accurate mouse clicks over there and less from managing/mashing 20 keybinds.

  11. #3971
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Including movement, off gcd abilities (ShoR) and button mashing it should be several 100's
    Don't really think it should be compared to RTS games since most of it comes from accurate mouse clicks over there and less from managing/mashing 20 keybinds.
    Which is why we're talking ability usage and not including movement .

    PS: First post on page 200 - woohoo

  12. #3972
    Right, we were all excluding movement/targetting (or at least I was). Purely factoring in "rotational abilities" both on and off the GCD, plus their actual GCD, PLUS lag/reaction time and being human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  13. #3973
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Right, we were all excluding movement/targetting (or at least I was). Purely factoring in "rotational abilities" both on and off the GCD, plus their actual GCD, PLUS lag/reaction time and being human.
    Especially as it is better tanking on many bosses if you stand still the whole fight (or at least minimize movement).

  14. #3974
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Especially as it is better tanking on many bosses if you stand still the whole fight (or at least minimize movement).
    What? Don't you know you get a +5% dmg buff if you side step for at least 20 seconds in a row? Works for rogues too. At least - that's what I tell myself all the time..

  15. #3975
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    What? Don't you know you get a +5% dmg buff if you side step for at least 20 seconds in a row? Works for rogues too. At least - that's what I tell myself all the time..
    Not to mention the increased crit chance you get from jumping.

  16. #3976
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Not to mention the increased crit chance you get from jumping.
    No way!! D:
    Cheatorz!!

    I have only gotten once 10 stacks of Anima Ring from jumping. ^^
    Wasn't funny as I saw my char jumping right back at the middle of them, and I couldn't do anything. >_> It was the longest 0.5s of my life....

  17. #3977
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Not to mention the increased crit chance you get from jumping.
    I had completely forgotten about that. Damn - all those ranks I could've gotten...

  18. #3978
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    I had completely forgotten about that. Damn - all those ranks I could've gotten...
    Talking of that. Wouldnt it be awesome if Judgment got 20 yards increase range while you are in the air (a.k.a. jumping or falling)?

    Haha, that would be a really weird mechanic.

  19. #3979
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Talking of that. Wouldnt it be awesome if Judgment got 20 yards increase range while you are in the air (a.k.a. jumping or falling)?

    Haha, that would be a really weird mechanic.
    Speaking of range of abilities. WTB bigger range on keg smash.

  20. #3980
    Hi, quick question, i'm on 521 ilvl atm, and i've gemed and reforged almost only haste, and i'm at hit cap , and 14 % exspertise.
    Like i said my gemming and reforeing is purely based on haste, but i haven't reforged items that have 2 usefull secondary stats that aren't haste, just so i could keep myself at 14 % expertise and 20 % mastery (goes to 25 % when buffed just so i can get my sotr to reduce flat 50 %). Is my current personal build ok?

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