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  1. #541
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You left you the bit where you provide any kind of facts to figures to back up your opinion.
    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/TotalSubs.png
    You clearly see that starting from 2009, the total number of sub-based MMOs plateaus at ~22M before declining. In marketing terms, that means the market is saturated. When a market is saturated, you can only attract new players from other games. Also, you need to reduce the churn, which was huge in BC (the devs discussed that back in the days). So, you can no longer afford a lot of players leaving before lvl 10 like it used to be the case. Fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponXAnimosity View Post
    More like the massive exodus of hardcore progression raiders who burned themselves out by trying too hard to stay elite.
    There is not enough hardcore players for that. Unless you insinuate that 4M players who left since Cata are all hardcore, in which case you have problems with stuff other than maths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    "We've always had a lot of churn. Historically we were able to attract more new players."

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...31672934182913
    Precisely.
    And you can't attract new players when the market is obviously saturated. That's kinda the definition.
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  2. #542
    First off can we stop saying casuals? You can be casual and not a god awful player. True casuals have still been able to do heroic raids since WotLK if they were a decent player. Being casual had NOTHING to do with your ability to clear heroics or hard modes before it was 2 different settings. You did not have to raid 20 hours a week to clear normal or heroic if you had any semblance of skill at the game.

    That being said casuals did NOT kill the game. Terrible players claiming to be casuals did. "I'm casual I can't raid every night for 5 hours like Paragon etc do. Pls make this easier for me". That is a bad player with misconceptions not a casual. The top end guilds raid the crazy hours they do in order to get world firsts. Let that sink in. Of all the guilds in the world they are raiding those numbers to be first. Your guild even if it's going for server first unless it's on the server with a world top guild does not have to raid that much.

    MoP is a prime example. I pugged the first half of MSV the second week of opening or so. People had trouble pugging it even beyond that. We raided maybe 3 nights for 2 hours a piece as a pug. Still pretty casual and damn early before getting LFR gear(maybe a sprinkling of pieces among us). So please tell me how being casual has anything to do with not being able to clear raids? Once again it's not being casual it's being terrible. Casuals can clear raids other than LFR just fine.

  3. #543
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    MoP is a prime example. I pugged the first half of MSV the second week of opening or so. People had trouble pugging it even beyond that. We raided maybe 3 nights for 2 hours a piece as a pug. Still pretty casual and damn early before getting LFR gear(maybe a sprinkling of pieces among us). So please tell me how being casual has anything to do with not being able to clear raids? Once again it's not being casual it's being terrible. Casuals can clear raids other than LFR just fine.
    And yet, according to WoWprogress, almost 20% of raids who kill the first boss in MSV fail to kill the last boss. Less than 50% kill the Empress.
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  4. #544
    Stood in the Fire Bloodydemize's Avatar
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    I have been so annoyed by people that when I think of casual I imagine this http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9882178141 now and not someone like my dad who used to play and only got on like 4 hours a week to raid. LFR was originally intended for people to see content, but people are just greedy and just gimme gimme gimme, they want to put no work in and still get rewarded for it.

  5. #545
    Purebalance: if it helps, replace "casual" with a nonsense word like "mumblefrotz", if your preconceptions about what the word should mean are interfering with your understanding of what is being discussed.

    Casual, in the context of discussions like this, refers to players who, for whatever reason, aren't being served by the hardcore raid endgame design (ignoring PvP as these threads tend to do). WHY they aren't being served -- lack of time, lack of skill, lack of socialization, lack of give-a-damn -- is a secondary issue. In particular, being "terrible players" doesn't mean Blizzard should, or will, ignore them. Being a better player doesn't mean that one is a better customer.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    And yet, according to WoWprogress, almost 20% of raids who kill the first boss in MSV fail to kill the last boss. Less than 50% kill the Empress.
    It's all dependent on the realm you rolled on. On the realm that I used to play on, Sentinels, the top guild is only 6/13H (10-man) and only eight guilds have completed normal mode. There is only one 25-man guild and it hasn't completed normal mode yet. In contrast, the top nine guilds on Stormrage are all 13/13H (10-man) and 279 guilds have completed normal mode. Three 25-man guilds on there are 13/13H and twenty-six 25-man guilds have finished normal mode. For that reason the pool of raid-capable puggers on well-progressed servers is vastly larger than the raiding pool on the smaller servers. It's easy to fall under the misconception that just anyone can pug their way through the game if they only take the time when you had the good fortune to roll on a decent server. This is why queues on the high pop servers continue to grow while the low-pop servers continue to die off. There's a reason they had to add "virtual realms."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodydemize View Post
    I have been so annoyed by people that when I think of casual I imagine this http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9882178141 now and not someone like my dad who used to play and only got on like 4 hours a week to raid. LFR was originally intended for people to see content, but people are just greedy and just gimme gimme gimme, they want to put no work in and still get rewarded for it.
    Get your facts straight. This is taken directly from the Raid Finder Q&A that was released in November of 2011 to explain LFR's purpose:
    Raid Finder is primarily intended for players who don’t already raid consistently. These are players who may not have had the opportunity to take part in raid content due to scheduling conflicts, playtime constraints, limited access to other raid-capable players, or a lack of experience with higher-end content. These players may want to experience World of Warcraft’s raid content and storyline without being able to commit to the additional time investment of a raiding guild. The Raid Finder is also a great way to quickly and easily gear up alternate characters without having to worry about raid lockouts.
    This commonly repeated misconception about LFR being strictly "to see content" came from players, not from Blizzard.

  7. #547
    We already know there is more players who have quit the game then there are those who played at its peak and that was at the start of Cata. The saturation argument only really shows that WoW would have not peaked any higher. I think most of the quarterly reports of losses had Asia as the majority of losses as well just showing how large that market was. WoW in Asia is run differently than in US and EU and the players wants from Asia varies from the quibbles of those of us on the NA and EU side. Despite this the core of the game is relatively the same which just adds that much more of a variety of players that Blizzard is trying to please.

    You can try and make the argument that Cata is at fault for the huge sub losses, but MoP is showing no better. It certainly did not help that unhappy "hardcore fans" went around as casuals and created a gigantic negative shit storm defaming Blizzard and WoW which caries on to this day. Subs was going to go down in Cata anyways and even if the heroics was easier there was a lack of content problems that was being complained from day one and continually by even those who had no problems running their seven heroics week after week. Blizzard was unable to push out enough content all the way until its end. If Blizzard chose to stay stagnant and change nothing from end of WotLK going into Cata there would have been a lack of content and bitching about RDF groups. So easily players forget the complaints early WotLK about multi-hour heroics, healer imbalance, lack of epics, lack of epic shards, costs of mats being too high, not enough dailies, and a plethora of other complaints. On top of that players would once again bitch that non-raiders progression was far slower than raiders including the badges. There still would have been a minority of the playerbase raiding with a minority of that clearing the whole raid while current.

    Players are also forgetting that it was Cata where a larger percentage of players hit level cap and did endgame compared to WotLK. Blizzard had their data and they was seeing far too much loses in WotLK to remain stagnant. The developers certainly made a bunch of missteps going into Cata, but like it or not it was fed by their data given by the playerbase just as it was going into MoP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    This commonly repeated misconception about LFR being strictly "to see content" came from players, not from Blizzard.
    That Q&A came out after the first talks about LFR hit. I do not recall any statements saying "strictly" while there was posts referring to the purpose being a response to those who want to see the content. At least from what I saw on the forums the players who asked to see content took a back seat to those complaining about exhausting the gear on the VP vendors with months left and wanting the full tier set on the vendors. Unfortunately for those stricken by poor RNG, Blizzard goes and tries to stick it to the VP gear complainers by pulling the gear off the vendors and telling them to go and do the raid.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-09-07 at 10:46 AM.

  8. #548
    Deleted
    I think that LFR bring the experience of endgame for more casual players, and that i think its fair, ubt they should do Normal raid more dificult....

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyga View Post
    ubt they should do Normal raid more dificult....
    Normal mode is already way too difficult. The gap between LFR and normal mode is ten times bigger than the gap between normal and heroic which is major problem, and why so few of LFR players ever move on to the next level.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    That Q&A came out after the first talks about LFR hit.
    That Q&A was Blizzard's official explanation for why they created LFR, and it was posted on the day of LFR's release.

    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    I do not recall any statements saying "strictly" while there was posts referring to the purpose being a response to those who want to see the content.
    Please link a source for that. Seeing the content was one reason, but many players claim it was the only reason even though Blizzard has never put out any official statements to that effect. In fact, I posted an official statement which flat out refutes that misstatement. There's no dancing around that.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Obviously, the latter is the one showing "entitlement". The casual is just asking Blizzard to act in their own best interest.
    That's some election-cycle quality spin right there. Impressive.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by taurenguard View Post
    I will never understand why people prefered to have to: feed pets with shit, buy vials and poison mats, buy arrows, buy runestones for portals, symbols for paladin buffs and all that crap. I hated all of that stuff. Maybe the raids were more fun back then but these minor inconviniences really bothered me always and I don't miss them. Also mounts @ lvl 40&60 was total bullshit, 20&40 is much better for leveling.
    Does anyone remember how boring leveling lockpicking was? Because I do. This brings me to weapon skills, when you got a new bow and you used a gun before all your attacks miss because of your skill being level 1 instead of 200 :/

    On topic, not casuals ruined the game but blizzard that wanted more income by making the game attractive, faster, convinient and less time consuming.
    So yeah, Blizzard made decisions that are ruining the game based around casual players is what you're saying. This is why devs should not pay attention to forums ever. People will complain no matter what. If you listen to them, you're done.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Normal mode is already way too difficult. The gap between LFR and normal mode is ten times bigger than the gap between normal and heroic which is major problem, and why so few of LFR players ever move on to the next level.
    I'd say 'why bother' is a bigger factor in not moving on than 'it's too hard'. There's a steady drop in first-boss attempts across raid tiers since LFR's introduction, and I find it difficult to believe that folks are hesitant to give it a shot because they heard how tough it may or may not be. It's far more likely that they simply don't see a need to bother with it.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    That's some election-cycle quality spin right there. Impressive.
    So, you think someone asking Blizzard to do something that would be contrary to their business interests, and someone asking Blizzard to do otherwise, are equivalent?

    Casuals are in the enviable position that their interests, and Blizzards, are in closer alignment than are the interests of the entitled elitists. So the casuals don't have to make a self-serving argument; they can get the same effect with a principled one.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, you think someone asking Blizzard to do something that would be contrary to their business interests, and someone asking Blizzard to do otherwise, are equivalent?

    Casuals are in the enviable position that their interests, and Blizzards, are in closer alignment than are the interests of the entitled elitists. So the casuals don't have to make a self-serving argument; they can get the same effect with a principled one.
    They're making just as entitled an argument as any other group of players might be (lets pretend for a moment that the playerbase is so easily fragmented into player types). The humorous tidbit here is that a) most casual-centric requests would serve to decrease sub stability (by effectively making content consumable at a faster rate), and b) Blizzard has been listening and making efforts towards said casual playerbase, and it's still not working out in their business interests.

  16. #556
    casuals didn't ruin wow, although some may have degraded the community. the arena crybabies ruined all hope of class balance and the 1 who truly ruined the game is kalgan!

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    They're making just as entitled an argument as any other group of players might be (lets pretend for a moment that the playerbase is so easily fragmented into player types). The humorous tidbit here is that a) most casual-centric requests would serve to decrease sub stability (by effectively making content consumable at a faster rate), and b) Blizzard has been listening and making efforts towards said casual playerbase, and it's still not working out in their business interests.
    Where are all these supposed demands by casuals? Blizzard has reacted to people leaving the game not to people demanding the game be changed on the forums.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I'd say 'why bother' is a bigger factor in not moving on than 'it's too hard'.
    You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true. Multiple blue posts have said normal mode raids are too hard. It might not be the main reason or the only reason why people aren't moving up from LFR, but I know for a fact that it is the limiting factor for few extremely casual "friends and family" type of guilds I have some contact with.

    They would want to do normal modes and maybe even try heroic, but it's just not possible in MoP for a guild that cleared normal mode 10man Dragon Soul regardless of LFR and had few decent tries on heroic bosses there. Horridon and Council of Elders was just too much, and prevented enjoying raiding in this tier..



    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Where are all these supposed demands by casuals?
    Nowhere. It's just a bullshit myth made up by the special snowflakes. Only demands from so-called casual players that I have ever seen in this or the official forums are from obvious trolls.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Nowhere. It's just a bullshit myth made up by the special snowflakes. Only demands from so-called casual players that I have ever seen in this or the official forums are from obvious trolls.

    I don't know if you can say the casual complaints didn't exist, they created a lot of problems like LFR, LFD (guys that were just bad at PvE were automatically given a group without ever having to learn their class, ninja's could roll on whatever they wanted), and casual isn't the right word here, but you know what I mean lol. Now the game is all about queue's and teaming up with random strangers you'll never see again, was actually fun and felt like you were doing something interested when you had to make a trip there, when people wouldn't roll on your gear for the sake of pissing you off (when they don't need the item lol).... made you feel like you were actually doing a dungeon.

  20. #560
    This probably already been said, but casuals themselves did nothing but help the game expand. Blizzard themselves put too much emphasis on the casual content (not saying this stuff should go away) and a lot of hardcore players moved on from the game + no new ones taking their place because of multiple reasons, but one being that the content isn't challenging enough. A lot of gamers that haven't played wow look at it as a casual game b/c there isn't enough emphasis on difficult content.

    Proof: players have to create their own competitions to make the game more interesting/challenging. ie world firsts, region first, guild vs guild raid races. If the content was hard enough even best wouldn't clear it in 2 weeks every tier
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-09-07 at 03:59 PM.

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