[Balance] T16H BiS List

[craigp100]

Yeah i tested sotf with DoC first with crit and then with mastery, mastery pulled higher dps, remember this was a 4 target situation.
I then tested inc with DoC, crit pulled out ontop, but i can only presume this is due to less time in eclipse. However overall the Sotf DoC gave the highest numbers.

That sounds reasonable enough:
SoTF contributing to pushing mastery ahead of crit in terms of DPS for SoTF / DoC as the two stats were close to each other and spending more time in eclipses increases the value of DoC.

With Incarnation selected, the additional SS procs we gain by prioritising crit over mastery helps us to remain in an eclipse state with the DoC buff giving a higher dps which outweighs the dps gain we would otherwise have from a mastery build although i'd imagine mastery would produce a more reliable (and possibly larger) burst than crit.


A quick play on the PTR showed similar results for me as well except for the overall dps where you had SoTF / DoC pull ahead. Instead, I sometimes had Incarnation / DoC / crit pull ahead if I got even slightly luckier with SS procs but the results were inconsistent when compared with SoTF / DoC / mastery so I might consider stocking up on some mastery gems for the upcoming patch for multi target fights such as Garrosh for consistent dps.

[Deleted]

I might consider stocking up on some mastery gems for the upcoming patch for multi target fights such as Garrosh for consistent dps.

Exactly what i was thinking. More and more i am feeling there will be no BiS list for this next tier with different talents, stats and playstyles producing better numbers fight by fight. I dont think we can just stack crit anymore and hope we compete, especially on the multi target and aoe fights. Think about Galakras, constant streams of adds, dots will be the top dps on that fight, even when i PTR'd it the other week with a full crit build before the DoC change my dots were top 2 on damage, SS behind. This type of consistent aoe cleave fight where hurricane and storm will be terrible to position and use with adds charging and moving into the blizzard etc will favor heavily the DoC build probably with Sotf. Whereas other fights where adds come every so often will probably favor Inc, and lastly the single target fights will be FoN ofc.

However the real question is, 'Does DoC pull ahead of Hotw in most of the situations also' ?

[Slippykins]

Exactly what i was thinking. More and more i am feeling there will be no BiS list for this next tier with different talents, stats and playstyles producing better numbers fight by fight. I dont think we can just stack crit anymore and hope we compete, especially on the multi target and aoe fights. Think about Galakras, constant streams of adds, dots will be the top dps on that fight, even when i PTR'd it the other week with a full crit build before the DoC change my dots were top 2 on damage, SS behind. This type of consistent aoe cleave fight where hurricane and storm will be terrible to position and use with adds charging and moving into the blizzard etc will favor heavily the DoC build probably with Sotf. Whereas other fights where adds come every so often will probably favor Inc, and lastly the single target fights will be FoN ofc.

However the real question is, 'Does DoC pull ahead of Hotw in most of the situations also' ?

Interesting results! It seems, barring RNG, both SotF/DoC and Inc/DoC are showing to be pretty strong for multiple targets, which would be good if it provided boomkins with an actual option for the same fight type. Hopefully it stays that way and your tests were indicative of average scenarios.

Chuck in HotW (possibly even NV) to your tests and see what happens when you combine those with the L60 talents. I'd hope there's still the need for a BiS list, at least this thread serves as a good port for theorycrafting discussion.

[Torlarn]

Question regarding trinkets: I notice in the trinket comparison list we're only comparing 3 of the trinkets (plus last tier's list) and not including Yu'lon's Bite that you can get with coins from the Isle. Is it just that bad? I was curious to see whether, even if it is horrible in compared to the raid trinkets, whether it would still be better than trinkets from ToT when starting out in the new raid.

[Slippykins]

Question regarding trinkets: I notice in the trinket comparison list we're only comparing 3 of the trinkets (plus last tier's list) and not including Yu'lon's Bite that you can get with coins from the Isle. Is it just that bad? I was curious to see whether, even if it is horrible in compared to the raid trinkets, whether it would still be better than trinkets from ToT when starting out in the new raid.

I could include it with the similar ilvl trinkets if you'd like, I probably just skipped over it.

[Deleted]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22285335

As i said in this post, will this mean that we should try to get gear for different fights to match our spec? Or is the difference low enough for us to ignore that? There are no numbers presented from the tests above.

[Slippykins]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22285335

As i said in this post, will this mean that we should try to get gear for different fights to match our spec? Or is the difference low enough for us to ignore that? There are no numbers presented from the tests above.

Possibly, I mean if mastery is indeed better than crit when using a DoC/SotF talent combo the hardcore players might want to regem/reforge for each boss. Though, even if the stats do flip-flop depending on talents the DPS increase/decrease will be relatively minimal. Both stats are pretty good next tier.

[Liax]

I might stick with the traditional route and stack crit this tier cause I honesty feel safer doing so. The mastery is clucky, and if I can get some on my gear awesome, but I'm not gonna go out of my way for something that may be better on paper.

Talent wise, I will be switching it up though.

[Slippykins]

I might stick with the traditional route and stack crit this tier cause I honesty feel safer doing so. The mastery is clucky, and if I can get some on my gear awesome, but I'm not gonna go out of my way for something that may be better on paper.

Talent wise, I will be switching it up though.

Crit is better on paper. Mastery is thought to be better than crit when combined with SotF, but that's just speculation and not supported by current modelling. There's no doubt mastery is higher than with other talents, but at least on paper it's still below crit.

[Slippykins]

Rather small update today but somewhat important.

Mostly sparked by a few boomkins I've spoken to and the general consensus going into 5.4, as well as partly due to my post in the Changes and Thoughts thread (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22331399), I've decided to change the default talents from Inc/HotW to Inc/DoC. DoC seems like a particularly strong talent, but in the event that HotW is mostly taken I'll revert this change.

Nonetheless, with DoC selected there's but one change in gear I can find: offhand from Revelations of Y'Shaarj to Juggernaut's Power Core. While the JPC has less secondary stats overall, it allows us to get a lot more crit and doesn't affect our hit rating (more spirit would be very difficult to remove), at the expense of some mastery. Because mastery is quite a bit lower than crit, and also because DoC is better with less mastery, this change nets an increase of around 400 DPS. So far I haven't been able to find anything else that results in an increase, and Rik'kal's ends up being a loss because the hit on it isn't amplified.

I'll change these two things around, and with 5.4 just around the corner I'm sure I can supplement some findings with WoL logs and SimCraft sims soon enough.

[boomkinhero]

Since increased mastery reduces the effectiveness of DoC - does the crit/mastery stat weight deal change at all? I suspect we should dump all the mastery we can.

[craigp100]

Rather small update today but somewhat important.

Mostly sparked by a few boomkins I've spoken to and the general consensus going into 5.4, as well as partly due to my post in the Changes and Thoughts thread (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22331399), I've decided to change the default talents from Inc/HotW to Inc/DoC. DoC seems like a particularly strong talent, but in the event that HotW is mostly taken I'll revert this change.

Nonetheless, with DoC selected there's but one change in gear I can find: offhand from Revelations of Y'Shaarj to Juggernaut's Power Core. While the JPC has less secondary stats overall, it allows us to get a lot more crit and doesn't affect our hit rating (more spirit would be very difficult to remove), at the expense of some mastery. Because mastery is quite a bit lower than crit, and also because DoC is better with less mastery, this change nets an increase of around 400 DPS. So far I haven't been able to find anything else that results in an increase, and Rik'kal's ends up being a loss because the hit on it isn't amplified.

I'll change these two things around, and with 5.4 just around the corner I'm sure I can supplement some findings with WoL logs and SimCraft sims soon enough.

With DoC / Inc. selected, does the relatio crit = mastery + 7.5k still stand for the equilibrium point? I would think (according to your post in the other thread) that full crit would be more optimal

[Deleted]

Rather small update today but somewhat important.

Mostly sparked by a few boomkins I've spoken to and the general consensus going into 5.4, as well as partly due to my post in the Changes and Thoughts thread (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22331399), I've decided to change the default talents from Inc/HotW to Inc/DoC. DoC seems like a particularly strong talent, but in the event that HotW is mostly taken I'll revert this change.

Nonetheless, with DoC selected there's but one change in gear I can find: offhand from Revelations of Y'Shaarj to Juggernaut's Power Core. While the JPC has less secondary stats overall, it allows us to get a lot more crit and doesn't affect our hit rating (more spirit would be very difficult to remove), at the expense of some mastery. Because mastery is quite a bit lower than crit, and also because DoC is better with less mastery, this change nets an increase of around 400 DPS. So far I haven't been able to find anything else that results in an increase, and Rik'kal's ends up being a loss because the hit on it isn't amplified.

I'll change these two things around, and with 5.4 just around the corner I'm sure I can supplement some findings with WoL logs and SimCraft sims soon enough.

Out of curiosity, what situations resulted in your findings?
So like how many targets? Constant or burst?

I would agree pretty much with what you've said, though as i said before i still get higher results in prolonged Aoe situations with DoC and Sotf, but maybe thats just me playing it better.

[Dreyen]

Thread is a bit huge so i'm not gonna read through all of it, point me to a post if you must.. but I find some choices fancy, you got for items with haste or mastery instead of crit ones which do not seem to have disavantages.. is it because it's hard to reach a haste cap without grabbing those items? I'd just like to get a small description of why you grab X item instead of another for non-set items.

For exemple, i don't understand why you say the haste bracers are bis while the crit ones arent, or why the BoA garrosh mace isn't better than the mace you listed in here. Crit ones have a lot more crit rating than the haste ones have haste, and crit is our bis stat, unless mastery has gotten a LOT more valuable with the nerf to multidot starsurge on top of multiple add fights.

I'm guessing the BiS list varies a lot depending on which items you have so far, and if i somehow get a thunderforged 2h (like this tier..) like the crit/haste staff, ill probably never see the mh/oh combo you listed there :P

[craigp100]

Thread is a bit huge so i'm not gonna read through all of it, point me to a post if you must.. but I find some choices fancy, you got for items with haste or mastery instead of crit ones which do not seem to have disavantages.. is it because it's hard to reach a haste cap without grabbing those items? I'd just like to get a small description of why you grab X item instead of another for non-set items.

For exemple, i don't understand why you say the haste bracers are bis while the crit ones arent, or why the BoA garrosh mace isn't better than the mace you listed in here. Crit ones have a lot more crit rating than the haste ones have haste, and crit is our bis stat, unless mastery has gotten a LOT more valuable with the nerf to multidot starsurge on top of multiple add fights.

I'm guessing the BiS list varies a lot depending on which items you have so far, and if i somehow get a thunderforged 2h (like this tier..) like the crit/haste staff, ill probably never see the mh/oh combo you listed there :P

What you have to remember is that the list is registered as a complete set, so while the crit bracer may appear 'better' than the haste ones standalone they actually lose out when put into the set as the haste ones enable us to get closer to the 10.2k haste BP and maximise crit more.

The heirloom weapons from Garrosh are not BiS due to the fact that they cannot be upgraded (or warforged iirc) so they lose out to non heirloom weapons as a result.

[Dreyen]

Ok, so basically, crit bracers are better, but if i'm going for the whole set, i'll need some pure haste stats here and there to reach my cap? Sounds good enough, I thoguht reforging would get me my haste cap no matter what : P

[Deleted]

You can get more crit out of a whole set but to gain on one stat you must lose out on another. Slippy does a great job here, however i would urge all serious players to download wrathcalcs, and test sets for your own character and professions. I will personally not be using the exact set slippy has shown here for these precise reasons (though most of it will be similar).

[Slippykins]

Since increased mastery reduces the effectiveness of DoC - does the crit/mastery stat weight deal change at all? I suspect we should dump all the mastery we can.

Yep! See response below.

With DoC / Inc. selected, does the relatio crit = mastery + 7.5k still stand for the equilibrium point? I would think (according to your post in the other thread) that full crit would be more optimal

There's no such equilibrium point anymore, so full crit stacking is best if it doesn't sacrifice too many other secondary stats (ie. pieces with a good deal less total). I think I removed the equilibrium discussion from the OP anyway.

Out of curiosity, what situations resulted in your findings?
So like how many targets? Constant or burst?

I would agree pretty much with what you've said, though as i said before i still get higher results in prolonged Aoe situations with DoC and Sotf, but maybe thats just me playing it better.

It's mostly based on what I've gathered from a few boomkins other than yourself on the PTR. Also the Inc/DoC 25% bonus is pretty neat. SotF obviously also has synergy but wrt cycle time instead, so I'm sure it's still a viable choice.

You can get more crit out of a whole set but to gain on one stat you must lose out on another. Slippy does a great job here, however i would urge all serious players to download wrathcalcs, and test sets for your own character and professions. I will personally not be using the exact set slippy has shown here for these precise reasons (though most of it will be similar).

Nothing beats WrathCalcs-ing your own character when gearing up, but this list is meant as a basis for the best gear attainable as well as a benchmark for what we expect as a class. These threads typically spark a good deal of theorycrafting as well!

[Deleted]

Sorry if this has been asked somewhere/here before but when i should be breaking my tier 15 4 set bonus in the next tier? I currently have heroic set pieces + the heroic Tortos Spirit/Haste off-set chest on my druid so when should i get rid of the 4 set? Is the tier 16 2 set bonus enough or should i wait for the the new 4 set?

[Juvencus]

Sorry if this has been asked somewhere/here before but when i should be breaking my tier 15 4 set bonus in the next tier? I currently have heroic set pieces + the heroic Tortos Spirit/Haste off-set chest on my druid so when should i get rid of the 4 set? Is the tier 16 2 set bonus enough or should i wait for the the new 4 set?

T16 2p is quite strong so 4p -> 2p+2p -> 4p will do fine like usually