Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[Grimble]

I'm sure the members of bleeding edge guilds care about your sense of satisfaction over something you perceive to exist (it doesn't). I'm SO sure that raiders from MW, BL, etc etc, are emotionally devastated that people don't scramble to lick their boots. JK, none of them give 2 fucks about people like you, they have a great time competing with their challengers and couldn't care less what people think about "hardcores".

I don't even know who these faggots are or what MW stands for. Probably a bunch of dorks who'll be bagging my groceries as soon as the "raiding scene" finishes slowly dying off, but as long as they don't come around shitting up the forums, I don't really care who they are or who they compete with here in my casual game.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Hardcore players ruined the game. They removed all the mystery and chances to learn by doing when they decided to make guides and addons. They removed the joy from the game and made it mechanical rather than adventurous.

See how easy that was for me to blame the other side of the coin? Either side can be blamed for the 'ruination' of the game very easily. Truth is, it's more likely just bad players that want everything for nothing thanks to their huge entitlement issues. Those players that are neither hardcore or casual. We really need to clearly make the distinction between bad, casual and hardcore.

Who told you to use addons?
Who told you to use loot lists?
Who told you to watch boss guides?

oh and as a sidenote, here's some "quality of life" changes from blizzard.
Everyone should know weak auras/power auras, blizzard added their own version after a while.
Same story with the dungeon journal, loot list and ability list(s) previously only found on the internet and through addons blizzard added themselves.

YOU chose what you want to do, if you watch videos or reforge with an addon to get the optimal setup that's your doing. This is the same deal with guns/bullets: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If you want to find out something you will find a way, someone else will maybe provide you with a way to do so but in the end it's your choice.

[pallyopness]

I don't even know who these faggots are or what MW stands for. Probably a bunch of dorks who'll be bagging my groceries as soon as the "raiding scene" finishes slowly dying off, but as long as they don't come around shitting up the forums, I don't really care who they are or who they compete with here in my casual game.

see you are happy with what you have and they are happy with what they have...game is perfect so lets move on

[purebalance]

And yet, according to WoWprogress, almost 20% of raids who kill the first boss in MSV fail to kill the last boss. Less than 50% kill the Empress.

Yes they are bad. Not casual.

[purebalance]

What do you want? A medal?

Has it ever occurred to you in these situations the players you are playing with are even more inebriated than you? Or maybe they are the casual majority and do not have the addons to squeeze that extra 10-15% out of their rotation?

Never used a single add on other than recount, dbm, and a threat meter which eventually dropped the meter and still on main and alts topped dps plenty.

Stop claiming casuals get beaten. Bads get beaten. Casuals still know how to play.

[Gungrir]

Vanilla was a good time, i hated BC good riddance from resi gear (lol i still remember farming nature resist armor for AQ for 3 weeks for the damn blob and the wesp thingy) and attunement farming for weeks on end. Loved Wrath, never played Cata and i like MoP but i burned myself out from doing way too many daily's.

So i guess no, i only stayed in BC for my guild because they needed a few of those new Blood Elf Palas. Allot of the more "hardcore" players will tell you BC is the best expansion, so i guess i was a casual and i like the changes they did in Wrath.

I still dread going into Hellfire peninsula with my alt chars, i just don't like Outland at all.

[SinisterAUS]

No, the game is still good.

Heroic raiding is as hard as it's ever been

[DrSteveBrule]

Hardcore players ruined the game. They removed all the mystery and chances to learn by doing when they decided to make guides and addons. They removed the joy from the game and made it mechanical rather than adventurous.

See how easy that was for me to blame the other side of the coin?

While I agree with the rest of your post I think this was a turrible example!

Casual players are typified to not want to waste time "learning" their class so Hardcore's are doing them a favor.
Same with addons.

I agree that addons should kind of ruin certain things with combat, PVE and PVP.
I wish DBM and PvP bgtargets and all those invaluable tools need to go.

[Otimus]

The problem is that Blizz is making the same mistake that you are. Raid content does not cater to "bad players" or "casuals" period. It doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is. It's not casual content. If my friends and I are only logged in for a couple of hours apiece and on average only 45 minutes of that playtime overlaps, we don't have the time to park in a queue waiting on LFR to pop. When we do, we don't enjoy being forced to play with 20 other strangers. That's not conducive to a pleasant casual experience. As a casual I want to log on and run content with four or five friends. Raiding doesn't provide that. Period. Not in LFR, not in Flex, not in Normal, and not in Heroic. Raiding is not casual. Here are the raiding options:

• Play with 9 or 24 other people who are logged on for the same two hours that you are. That's not a reasonable constraint to place upon casual players
• Spend 45 minutes in queue to spend 1-3 hours facerolling content with 20+ random strangers. Note that those random strangers can still derail the raid if enough of them disregard mechanics. That's not fun.

I still don't get how a game whose multi-player content consists exclusively of very hard raiding, hard raiding, and very easy raiding is catering to casuals. Raiding is raiding, and raiding is not casual. Blizz is not catering to "bad players" or "casuals." Blizzard is trying to get those groups to raid even though they never wanted to and probably never will. Please quit blaming them for Blizzard's bad decisions. LFR does not cater to casuals. If anything it caters to ex-raiders.

Also please quit calling for LFR to be removed. Removing it won't fix anything because the fact will remain that there is no multi-player content for casual players. The idea that casual players would magically start raiding if only LFR were gone is a complete fantasy. It doesn't cost much to create and maintain, and there is a group of players who actually enjoys it, so let it be.

This is the biggest, largest, and glaring problem, and a big part of why I quit the game when I did. Well done, and well put.

No point in WoW's history has the casual player ever had a proper good way to experience the game in any real fashion, except early in it's life, when things like leveling were fresh and new. After that, it's all been platitudes for the hardcore, and scraps for the casuals. Pity content. Consider this: Casual players didn't even GET pity content until WotlK, even, so that's even more sad, and it took them 7 YEARS to even attempt LFR. One has to really wonder what the hell is wrong with Blizzard :x It's like they don't understand how people work, and think they can manipulate it or something.

People who think the casuals ruin things annoy the hell out of me. Almost everything in WoW, almost EVERY single thing worth ANYTHING is catered soley toward the hardcore. Things are made easier to try and not run off some casual players right away, that's true, but all it does is run them off later once they realize what's at the end :x In effect, it's what has always happened with WoW, but it's even worse now because there's no more subscriber churn.

- - - Updated - - -

The issue I believe is that blizz is not that everyone couldn't see raid content, but really, the stuff blizz is giving casuals as content now is a lot weaker than before, even though they didn't always get into the top raids. Places like Kara or normal modes had much better accessibility, 5 man heroics were awesome, progression from PvP - the game lacks that stuff now. Before you could log on for an hour an knock out a heroic 5 man and get a decent reward or build up to one, now you can go into a 5 man heroic.... but what's the point? Since it takes longer to queue for it then it does to actually complete the place, it doesn't feel like a dungeon so where is the fun?


I will agree blizz is nudging people who didn't raid before into doing so, even if there were good reasons why they didn't want to in the first place. And there was multi-player content for casuals before, like Kara, if you raided back then, how many people did you know that never touched that place that hit max level and enjoyed pve? I don't know any myself.

As it stands right now, blizz is using LFR and now flex as an excuse to not actually create content - 5 mans may be extinct next expansion the way things are going, which I think is a big mistake. And I'm not saying casuals would magically start raiding, some may, a lot may not - but there are a lot of reasons, maybe some just aren't into raiding? Right now though that's really the only thing they got. Put other stuff in, make raids that are casual friendly, but not just a re-hash of the same stuff, but don't make them so easy that you wanna afk them.

I know this is going to be very hard to believe, but back then, very few people raided -at all- at -any- level. INCLUDING Kara. Most people didn't even hit the level cap :x

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I'll give you a shorter answer since I'd rather go to bed right now...

When you're in a raiding guild today, you don't really have a choice of whether to use addons or not and watch guides or not. They are, quite literally, requirements. Your GM/Raid Leader dictates to you what to watch/install these days (it was like this in vanilla/TBC too really). It's even on guild applications too. So no, it's generally not a choice. Raiders are their own worst enemy.

If I didn't want to use addons I'd find another guild, I'm one of those who yell at people for NOT having addons if they can't handle boss mechanics or something.
If people DON'T fuck up I couldn't care less what addons they have or don't have, only exception would be Weak Auras since my guild use it to set up cooldown rotations (raid cds) on some fights that require planned cooldowns.

[Glorious Leader]

If I didn't want to use addons I'd find another guild, I'm one of those who yell at people for NOT having addons if they can't handle boss mechanics or something.
If people DON'T fuck up I couldn't care less what addons they have or don't have, only exception would be Weak Auras since my guild use it to set up cooldown rotations (raid cds) on some fights that require planned cooldowns.

It's a damn near requirement for virtually all guilds. In fact it's so pervasive the developers are basically designing fights with those mods (dbm and big wigs and such) in mind.

You are trying to present individual solutions to what are obvious systemic faults within the game. The trick I think is for you to take the responsibility off the developers so they can keep making the content that you like and maybe even go further in the direction you'd like by placing responsibility on the part of the individual. The individual has no responsibility, or better said they ultimately only have one responsibility. To pay or not to pay.

To be frank you are a hardcore player. 25 hours a week is 100 hours a month,13/13 hc in a 25 man guild that streams their own raids. You are hardcore. Going through your armory also leads me to the same conclusion. It's fine, it's not a pejorative or anything even if you don't consider yourself one you are.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Mind you it's 25hrs a week during progression, when we're on farm it's everything from 4-6 hours a week. It's the initial race (and mmo-champion / theorycrafting) that takes most of the time, do I consider myself hardcore? Meh, I invest a lot of time early on early tier and then "slack" when the time allows it.
Like 80% of all addons are quality of life helpers, Skada/Recount does NOTHING for you except measure your e-peen. DBM/Big Wigs is probably one of a very few addons that's actually so strong that it changes how you play, back in ICC there was an addon that allowed you to draw anywhere so you could mark up colors on the ground telling people where and where not to stand.

Point is, if you want you can play without addons. Sure it might be harder to compete but it's far from impossible...

[Glorious Leader]

Mind you it's 25hrs a week during progression, when we're on farm it's everything from 4-6 hours a week. It's the initial race (and mmo-champion / theorycrafting) that takes most of the time, do I consider myself hardcore? Meh, I invest a lot of time early on early tier and then "slack" when the time allows it.
Like 80% of all addons are quality of life helpers, Skada/Recount does NOTHING for you except measure your e-peen. DBM/Big Wigs is probably one of a very few addons that's actually so strong that it changes how you play, back in ICC there was an addon that allowed you to draw anywhere so you could mark up colors on the ground telling people where and where not to stand.

Point is, if you want you can play without addons. Sure it might be harder to compete but it's far from impossible...

I can technically play without gold to. Or gear. Or using a mount (for the most part and especially in pandaria). Obviously the game is not designed with that in mind and to say you can play without addons is basically saying you can play without using gold or play naked. It is correct but not true.

[DrSteveBrule]

This is the biggest, largest, and glaring problem, and a big part of why I quit the game when I did. Well done, and well put.

No point in WoW's history has the casual player ever had a proper good way to experience the game in any real fashion, except early in it's life, when things like leveling were fresh and new. After that, it's all been platitudes for the hardcore, and scraps for the casuals. Pity content. Consider this: Casual players didn't even GET pity content until WotlK, even, so that's even more sad, and it took them 7 YEARS to even attempt LFR. One has to really wonder what the hell is wrong with Blizzard :x It's like they don't understand how people work, and think they can manipulate it or something.

People who think the casuals ruin things annoy the hell out of me. Almost everything in WoW, almost EVERY single thing worth ANYTHING is catered soley toward the hardcore. Things are made easier to try and not run off some casual players right away, that's true, but all it does is run them off later once they realize what's at the end :x In effect, it's what has always happened with WoW, but it's even worse now because there's no more subscriber churn.

Raiding. Easy or Hard, isn't good enough for the casual player base?

Now we're dictating what content is right for casual players? When will you people learn there is no such thing as casual content. It's all what you, as individuals, want. And so far it seems like it's dungeons.

Why dungeons? What's the difference between Raiding and Dungeons? It's all the same thing with little variance. Less bosses, less mechanics, smaller instances (not always). You're still dpsing, you're still tanking, you're still healing.

Maybe casuals really just don't like WoW....

[Glorious Leader]

Raiding. Easy or Hard, isn't good enough for the casual player base?

Now we're dictating what content is right for casual players? When will you people learn there is no such thing as casual content. It's all what you, as individuals, want. And so far it seems like it's dungeons.

Why dungeons? What's the difference between Raiding and Dungeons? It's all the same thing with little variance. Less bosses, less mechanics, smaller instances (not always). You're still dpsing, you're still tanking, you're still healing.

Maybe casuals really just don't like WoW....

Raiding is far to time consuming even at lfr level. Raiding in no form is casual friendly. Dungeons and potentially scenarios to are bite sized friendly content. They currently do not offer enough reward motivation to make it so.

[Risale]

For some reason I keep coming back to this thread (I must be mental) but i'll stick my 2 cents in again for whatever its worth.

Casual the player that logs on and does whatever the fuck he/she/it wants, be it LFR/FLEX/Normal and yeah PvP (shudder, hurl, /wrist) or dailies or spend 6 hours in the vale molesting moths by turning them into turtles (no not me just a guildie of mine, a slightly warped one at that).

Semi-hardcore, same as above but trying in a relaxed way to clear current content (yes raiding) on heroic mode (that would be me for instance minus the turtle thing).

Hardcore (or elitist bastards as some of you seem to think they are which they are not and I know a few) those are the peeps that want to clear content as fast as they can (sometimes on as many toons as they can) and shoot for world 1st kill of fluffy kins mark 2.9 or whatever.

And last and not least the in my eyes the most detested people in the WoW community those whining gits that have nothing better to do then come on forums and bitch about how any of the 1st 3 groups ruined the game.

So get it through your thick heads that casuals did not ruin the game, semi-hardcore did not ruin the game, hardcore did not ruin the game.
There are still 7 million+ playing WoW more then any other MMO out now, not a single MMO has even gotten close to this EVER.


If anybody ruins the game it will be Blizzard and nobody else, so do us all (group 1-3) a favour and sod off.

[Deleted]

Casuals did not ruin WoW. It is as fun as it ever was. Although, they are a factor in the game's subscription loss. In my opinion, the added LFR feature was the mistake that caused a great chain reaction. Don't get me wrong. I couldn't care less if some other dude got epics from a boss I am struggling to get a kill on, without him even being in a guild. Here is the way I see it, tho: LFR is an option and noone is forced to do it. I fully agree with that, but it is a badly executed option. Blizzard is totally right in the idea to focus on casual players, but not giving them a progression path and simply red-carpeting the way to the current end boss is not the way to go. It removes the mystery and fun of fighting a new boss. Now, you may ask, why is this a problem for someone who doesn't do LFR. The answer is that it is not, but it is one for their guild.

Let me tell you a short story:
Back in ICC I was a casual type of player. I had 3 main character. They were fully badge-geared, doing VoA and organizing ICC pugs every week. But, doing that for an extended period of time did not provide the satisfaction mainly because other people I was around got better gear (thus out-healing me) and most importantly- telling me how fun X boss is. This gave me the incentive to try and find a good raiding guild. I did so and managed to down LK. That is not the important part tho. Having met a bunch of friends and being introduced to team-play made the game more fun. 2 expansions later I can say that raiding for me has turned 180-degree from what I perceived it to be back then. Getting gear and raiding for the sake of out-healing someone is not what I am looking for right now. I don't care about those things. I'd gladly give the shoulders I've won to someone else if he says that he needs them. I play to have fun and progress with people I consider friends. The moral of the story- if the game hadn't pushed me to give more serious raiding a try, I'd have remained as casual as I can be and not look for a way to better myself and, eventually, I would have left the game entirely.

Now, let's return to LFR. It does bring an option for casual players to do and in theory should bring more people into the raiding environment. This is not happening in the current state of the game. Its goal is the right one, but the way it is executed is not. It gives an option to experience end-game content while in a single-player environment. Multiplayer aspects are not present in this system. You don't need to communicate. You don't need to prepare. You are a robot. You join, heal/dps/tank and leave. It not only gives you the impression that you have beaten the end-game boss but also gives you the ability to say "That guy only beat me on dps because he has that normal-level axe. Therefore I am top on the damage meters among people with my level of raiding." And you leave the raid with the feeling of accomplishment. And what happens when you do this for 2-3 months straight? You have diminished the incentive to graduate to normal because you have already seen the fights. You might consider them great but having seen them 5-10 times already diminishes the desire to do them on normal. Not saying that casuals don't want to progress to normal. They do, but they already beat the bosses in LFR and might think that their time is better spent out of the game than to look for a raiding guild.

In the end you feel that you are done with the game without even experiencing the multiplayer aspect of it. You have no desire to play with other people. You don't want to try the harder part of the game. You don't need to acquire better skills to do so. This causes the chain reaction. I know that this is not the case with all of the LFR community, so to speak. But even if 10% of them feel this way it severely lowers the amount of people capable of normal raiding. This, in turn, lowers the amount of potential recruits. Normal guilds suffer from this and there are many of them who just disband. People leave because they cannot raid with their guilds. HC guilds suffer as well in the same line of logic. Thus the subscription losses occur.

LFR was a mistake but removing it now would be an even greater one. An idea I think would work is to give LFR normal gear drops and limit it to the previous raiding tear before the current one. Leave flex raiding as the new entry level current raiding. This way LFR would be used for what it is used now- introduction to raiding and gearing up. In the process you will get enough gear to do the new flex raid with a guild and eventually graduate to normal. There is still the feeling of mystery after out-progressing LFR.
Of course, this idea has flaws of its own, like what to do with the first and last patches of an expansion, but I believe there are people who have the responsibility and experience to think of a better system.

P.S.: Keep in mind that "casual" is a relative term. I use it to address players who only do LFR.
P.S.2: LFR raiders, don't get hostile. I know that you want to experience the content as well, even if you don't have the time to commit to the game. Fact is, there are a lot of casuals/new-comers who have the time but don't have a desire to graduate to normals, just because single-player and not having to commit to a guild is what they like. They need a push for the greater good of the game (and themselves, essentially). I really hope flex raiding does the job.

Tl;dr: In my opinion, LFR should not give the sense of accomplishment. It should tease.

[MoanaLisa]

LFR was a mistake but removing it now would be an even greater one. An idea I think would work is to give LFR normal gear drops and limit it to the previous raiding tear before the current one. Leave flex raiding as the new entry level current raiding.

No hostility but a couple of points:

1. There's a new raid and tier available tomorrow. Under your plan LFR wouldn't open for that until....when? Next expansion? One of the points about LFR is to let people experience the same story that everyone else is experiencing. So people who run LFR can't see the end of this expansion until 6.X?

2. Flex raiding may be fine as an entry level introduction to raiding if you can commit to a guild and if a guild will take you along. The first is very difficult for some people and the latter yet remains to be seen. Possible but history would suggest that it's not a certainty.

Both of these things are simply unworkable in the real world. And the argument that everyone is engaged in is pointless anyway in the face of multiple very simple and easy-to-understand statements from nearly everyone at Blizzard that LFR isn't going anywhere.

One point is correct: Flex will be the entry point for what some term 'real raiding': The sort of raiding where you are in a group of friends or guild mates and the team solves the problems of the raid together. LFR is--of course--none of that and while it's very useful for certain things, it's never going to provide the social experience of raiding. People who want to raid and can find a guild situation that works for them should do all they can to start with Flex or even Normal if the guild will tolerate that.

LFR is standalone different from other forms of raiding; it's purposes, audience and uses (especially for alts) different and as such should simply be left alone with some minor improvements to remove some of the occasional laziness and griefing that happens. I can assure you that if Blizzard was seeing its playing population shrinking principally because of LFR they would NOT be coming out in public and saying it's not going anywhere. People repeat this notion that people run LFR and then leave the game all the time as some factual thing with no particular evidence to back it up. I would suggest that most of the people I see repeating it have little idea or have forgotten entirely about the sort of game that it's intended audience actually plays. A lot of people running LFR these days do it when they feel like it and then go back to whatever they were doing before it existed. Running 5-mans, leveling alts, soloing old content, messing around in cities or trying out newer features of the game (farming, pet battles, scenarios) that interest them.

The missing thing at the moment is a guild and raiding culture that is open enough to provide that social experience that's there to be had. Time will tell if that happens.

[Ronduwil]

Exactly, what people spent 2-3 months doing back in TBC, WotLK and early cata with pugs and grinds and such now takes one month and you don't have to play more than 1hr a day to get through it all. THAT is the problem with the game, it's so easy that people get burned out easier so they "quit" until the next new thing comes. Now that doesn't mean that they cancel their subscription but they stop logging inn which makes the "world" seem more barren

I agree with this.

not to mention that you can sit in Org, SW, Dalaran or wherever the f'ck you want and play the game instead of going around to the different places and do them.

I don't agree with this. It used to be that in order to run a dungeon with a pug you had to park in town and spam trade chat for hours just to get a group going (kind of like pugging normal raids). Now you can run dailies, farm mats, and/or fish while waiting in queue. The people who park in town while queued would have been parked in the town before anyway. In fact, before LFD you had to be parked in town. If anything, LFD improves that situation. If there was exciting stuff to do out in the world people would be out in the world. Unfortunately all the exciting stuff is in daily hubs and raid instances. That's why the world is barren.

[Otimus]

Raiding. Easy or Hard, isn't good enough for the casual player base?

Now we're dictating what content is right for casual players? When will you people learn there is no such thing as casual content. It's all what you, as individuals, want. And so far it seems like it's dungeons.

Why dungeons? What's the difference between Raiding and Dungeons? It's all the same thing with little variance. Less bosses, less mechanics, smaller instances (not always). You're still dpsing, you're still tanking, you're still healing.

Maybe casuals really just don't like WoW....

"Maybe casuals really just don't like WoW...." I think there's a whole lot of truth in that, too. MMO's in general, even, I think that carries a lot of truth. The games attract casual players, but can't keep them because they flat out don't have engaging casual content, and in some ways, never have :x

- - - Updated - - -

Casuals did not ruin WoW. It is as fun as it ever was. Although, they are a factor in the game's subscription loss. In my opinion, the added LFR feature was the mistake that caused a great chain reaction. Don't get me wrong. I couldn't care less if some other dude got epics from a boss I am struggling to get a kill on, without him even being in a guild. Here is the way I see it, tho: LFR is an option and noone is forced to do it. I fully agree with that, but it is a badly executed option. Blizzard is totally right in the idea to focus on casual players, but not giving them a progression path and simply red-carpeting the way to the current end boss is not the way to go. It removes the mystery and fun of fighting a new boss. Now, you may ask, why is this a problem for someone who doesn't do LFR. The answer is that it is not, but it is one for their guild.

Let me tell you a short story:
Back in ICC I was a casual type of player. I had 3 main character. They were fully badge-geared, doing VoA and organizing ICC pugs every week. But, doing that for an extended period of time did not provide the satisfaction mainly because other people I was around got better gear (thus out-healing me) and most importantly- telling me how fun X boss is. This gave me the incentive to try and find a good raiding guild. I did so and managed to down LK. That is not the important part tho. Having met a bunch of friends and being introduced to team-play made the game more fun. 2 expansions later I can say that raiding for me has turned 180-degree from what I perceived it to be back then. Getting gear and raiding for the sake of out-healing someone is not what I am looking for right now. I don't care about those things. I'd gladly give the shoulders I've won to someone else if he says that he needs them. I play to have fun and progress with people I consider friends. The moral of the story- if the game hadn't pushed me to give more serious raiding a try, I'd have remained as casual as I can be and not look for a way to better myself and, eventually, I would have left the game entirely.

Now, let's return to LFR. It does bring an option for casual players to do and in theory should bring more people into the raiding environment. This is not happening in the current state of the game. Its goal is the right one, but the way it is executed is not. It gives an option to experience end-game content while in a single-player environment. Multiplayer aspects are not present in this system. You don't need to communicate. You don't need to prepare. You are a robot. You join, heal/dps/tank and leave. It not only gives you the impression that you have beaten the end-game boss but also gives you the ability to say "That guy only beat me on dps because he has that normal-level axe. Therefore I am top on the damage meters among people with my level of raiding." And you leave the raid with the feeling of accomplishment. And what happens when you do this for 2-3 months straight? You have diminished the incentive to graduate to normal because you have already seen the fights. You might consider them great but having seen them 5-10 times already diminishes the desire to do them on normal. Not saying that casuals don't want to progress to normal. They do, but they already beat the bosses in LFR and might think that their time is better spent out of the game than to look for a raiding guild.

In the end you feel that you are done with the game without even experiencing the multiplayer aspect of it. You have no desire to play with other people. You don't want to try the harder part of the game. You don't need to acquire better skills to do so. This causes the chain reaction. I know that this is not the case with all of the LFR community, so to speak. But even if 10% of them feel this way it severely lowers the amount of people capable of normal raiding. This, in turn, lowers the amount of potential recruits. Normal guilds suffer from this and there are many of them who just disband. People leave because they cannot raid with their guilds. HC guilds suffer as well in the same line of logic. Thus the subscription losses occur.

LFR was a mistake but removing it now would be an even greater one. An idea I think would work is to give LFR normal gear drops and limit it to the previous raiding tear before the current one. Leave flex raiding as the new entry level current raiding. This way LFR would be used for what it is used now- introduction to raiding and gearing up. In the process you will get enough gear to do the new flex raid with a guild and eventually graduate to normal. There is still the feeling of mystery after out-progressing LFR.
Of course, this idea has flaws of its own, like what to do with the first and last patches of an expansion, but I believe there are people who have the responsibility and experience to think of a better system.

P.S.: Keep in mind that "casual" is a relative term. I use it to address players who only do LFR.
P.S.2: LFR raiders, don't get hostile. I know that you want to experience the content as well, even if you don't have the time to commit to the game. Fact is, there are a lot of casuals/new-comers who have the time but don't have a desire to graduate to normals, just because single-player and not having to commit to a guild is what they like. They need a push for the greater good of the game (and themselves, essentially). I really hope flex raiding does the job.

Tl;dr: In my opinion, LFR should not give the sense of accomplishment. It should tease.

I don't really see how not having LFR would really do much right now. It's not like those people will magically keep playing for no reason. It's not like normal raid participation has ever been all that high anyways.

If anything, not having SOMETHING for those people to do would have just hastened the quitting.

If anything needs to be done, it's just having a queue-able progression path that includes LFR, but isn't JUST LFR.

You have to realize that most people flat out don't want to do organized stuff in these kind of games, and never really have. I know it sucks to hear that, and probably goes against most of what you think about the game. But it's the truth :x