BiS - 5.4 Blood Death Knight

[Deleted]

So yeah...I'll stick to being the last man standing. If the raid needs more DPS I'll do it (but the DPS better evaluate themselves and up their throughput) thus I'll add some extra through means such as Runeforge Swapping or using a trinket. But we have some baller DPS in my raid group. So I'll stick to my survival build so we can continue to 2-heal fights.

I agree to the point that tank DPS shouldn't be the reason why a boss dies. But looking at the current and next content, I get the feeling that full-mastery or stamina/mastery simply isn't a good choice anymore. When you want to get tanky, you need stats. But not just 1k mastery, that's not enough. Same goes for DPS. Swapping the runeforging or a trinket is a very basic way of doing extra DPS, but usually it's an increase of not more than a few percent. What really makes a stat efficient is stacking it. That goes for mastery just as much as for haste. And - at least that is my opinion - at a not too high itemlevel of both you and your healers survivability should not be a matter anymore. Groupheal is in fact way more annoying than tankheal. Assuming you are a skilled enough player, you simply don't die due to having low mastery. If you die, it's because you made a critical mistake. Mastery helps you as it usually forgives more mistakes compared to going full haste. But the playstyle itself is not only a very enjoyable one, your survivability only decreases to a certain point. As long as that point is not below your personal skill and / or what a specific bossmechanic needs, thinking dps wise is the better choice.

[Veraxys]

I agree to the point that tank DPS shouldn't be the reason why a boss dies. But looking at the current and next content, I get the feeling that full-mastery or stamina/mastery simply isn't a good choice anymore. When you want to get tanky, you need stats. But not just 1k mastery, that's not enough. Same goes for DPS. Swapping the runeforging or a trinket is a very basic way of doing extra DPS, but usually it's an increase of not more than a few percent. What really makes a stat efficient is stacking it. That goes for mastery just as much as for haste. And - at least that is my opinion - at a not too high itemlevel of both you and your healers survivability should not be a matter anymore. Groupheal is in fact way more annoying than tankheal. Assuming you are a skilled enough player, you simply don't die due to having low mastery. If you die, it's because you made a critical mistake. Mastery helps you as it usually forgives more mistakes compared to going full haste. But the playstyle itself is not only a very enjoyable one, your survivability only decreases to a certain point. As long as that point is not below your personal skill and / or what a specific bossmechanic needs, thinking dps wise is the better choice.

About the only boss this tier I could think of we needed a slight boost in DPS was in the form of HM Tortos and HM Horridon - but that came in the form of DPS not dying to not being dispelled or making sure they didn't stand in shit, or let a cast go off. If your raid calls for more DPS from the tank, there is something wrong regardless - and it usually stems from someone not min/maxing their character or they keep dying and require a brez since they stood in the fire.

Thank God I'm in a good group where Tank DPS isn't heavily relied upon, whether for farming or pushing HM Progression.

[shells]

Can we get back to the discussion about blood gear choices? This is turning into Grollix story time and a flame fest.

[Ikrekot]

http://bit.ly/1512Vfx

What do you think about this?

- - - Updated - - -

From this item set with enchants and gems I'll get 12k+ (21%+ critical) critical from Riposte and maybe 45%+ avoidance or even more.

[Cryopathy]

Disagreeing with someone is not the same as flaming. Nobody is attacking anybody personally.

My issue is that this style of gearing is based not on the reality of tanking as it is, but on opinions like "I believe tanks should just tank and DPS should do all the DPS" and "tanks should always gear for maximum survival". For the vast majority of 25H tanks that attitude is fine because you're one of 18+ people doing damage, and incoming damage is higher, which both necessitates more survivability and results in higher DPS naturally due to increased Vengeance.

For 10H, it's outdated thinking that ignores the reality of 10H tanking as it actually is today.
-There's not enough incoming damage in most situations to require gearing for maximum survival.
-Tank DPS is very important and is a significant portion of overall raid DPS. It doesn't matter whether or not anyone thinks it should be. It simply is.
-Raid healing is more stressful on healers than tank healing, and higher overall raid DPS leads to adds dying faster, phases finishing faster, fewer occurrences of high damage raid mechanics, etc. which reduces raid damage taken.
-DPS players can be performing at 100% efficiency and you can still not have enough DPS to finish a boss if the tanks are underperforming.

If tank DPS wasn't important, why would top guilds favor Brewmasters and Paladins instead of DKs and Warriors?

My issue is that posts like these get made, and people see a simple list of gear or a simple stat priority and follow it blindly without questioning whether it is best for them, and that is damaging to their progression. I will say that the revised OP is better than its first iteration, but a bis list for a tank is still relatively pointless because we don't gear the same in every situation like a DPS does. Any 10H Blood DK who gears for pure, balls to the wall survival is doing their raid a disservice in most situations. They might be optimizing their personal survival, but they are not optimizing their raid's chances of killing bosses.

[Sunnydee]

If tank DPS wasn't important, why would top guilds favor Brewmasters and Paladins instead of DKs and Warriors?

while i agree to most of what you're saying and not much to add i just want to point out from this line that top guilds are usually way lower geared when getting to end bosses on heroic and usually need that extra dps to beat the encounter, iirc- taking BL and method they were roughly 520ish when doiing tortos to DA heroic, that means taking a tank who does more dps and pushing the healers more is a way of getting a kill faster.

Its also the fact that paladins and monks can migitate more dmg in less gear due to stagger and SotR, meaning screwups from other raidmembers can easier be handled for healers


> This is my List il be going with (yes slapped on normal. but basically same overall for hc) <

2-2.5k haste is something i almost need to make it feel smooth

[shells]

Disagreeing with someone is not the same as flaming. Nobody is attacking anybody personally.

Wasn't aiming that at you. I do understand your thoughts about 10m tank dps since I've been in the same situation.

http://bit.ly/1512Vfx

What do you think about this?


From this item set with enchants and gems I'll get 12k+ (21%+ critical) critical from Riposte and maybe 45%+ avoidance or even more.

I'd go for: Thok's Tail Tip
The healing from this trinket is much greater than the focusing crystal. Also, it would be pretty good if you had riposte, strength proc, and got a massive death strike. Plus it would 9% haste,mastery,and crit passive at 2/2 upgrade level for more fluidity with the rune regeneration.

Scenario: you hit the boss with death strike for 350,000

Tailtip increases healing by 9%. 350,000 * .09 = 31500 extra healing for a total of 381500

Juggernaut converts 3.14% of damage into healing. 350,000 * .0314 = 10990 extra healing for a total of 360990

There is a lot to consider between the two.

[Nillo]

Scenario: you hit the boss with death strike for 350,000

Tailtip increases healing by 9%. 350,000 * .09 = 31500 extra healing for a total of 381500

Juggernaut converts 3.14% of damage into healing. 350,000 * .0314 = 10990 extra healing for a total of 360990

There is a lot to consider between the two.

Wait - is it just me or are you trying to say DS heal is based on it's damage done?

[Murdos]

Wait - is it just me or are you trying to say DS heal is based on it's damage done?

He is. Which is marginally hilarious.

However, Thokk's probably wouldn't be terrible from a Mitigation standpoint - if, it actually worked for tank-spec'd characters. They were pretty specific during the PTR each individual amplification trinket only worked for the spec and stat base it was meant for.

[Glaziola]

Thank you for the lists i bookmarked this

[shells]

Wait - is it just me or are you trying to say DS heal is based on it's damage done?

Yeah that's me being dumb. All this time I have never actually read that tooltip...

[Nillo]

Yeah that's me being dumb. All this time I have never actually read that tooltip...

Yes for like 2 expansions? >_>

[Deleted]

I disagree with this - I do around 100-140k as Blood (sometimes 225k on some fights like Tortos, Durumu, even Lei Shen) but perhaps I am a little old school, cause well, I like to time my Death Strikes so with that, I end up throttling somewhat - and I still end up with better survival.

I believe if the DPS really...REALLY have to rely on Tank DPS to kill a boss (which should never be the case), then the DPS need to re-evaluate their playstyle, since they cannot meet the DPS requirements they themselves need to achieve, and the DPS need to be replaced.

If blizzard wants Tanks to do DPS, then they need to just remove Tank Stats/Gear, and just let tanks wear flat out DPS gear and we all just gear the exact same, and use the same gearset for both an actual DPS set as well as to Tank with.

Also the spamming Taunt on CD is an exaggeration, but DPS for a Tank should be 2nd thought at least, but not top priority. To quote Reniat:
"While Tank DPS is important, surviving is always #1 and being an unstable tank is a hefty price to pay for extra dps. If you aren't stable there had better be a good reason for that extra dps, or you are just making it harder on your healers for no reason, which is obviously not good. If you are trying to rank, make sure your healers are on board first."

Perhaps this is why I always, ALWAYS outlast my OT on progression and farm kills - he focuses on a lil more DPS (which we do NOT need, trust me) thus he dies, while I end the fight full health!

So yeah...I'll stick to being the last man standing. If the raid needs more DPS I'll do it (but the DPS better evaluate themselves and up their throughput) thus I'll add some extra through means such as Runeforge Swapping or using a trinket. But we have some baller DPS in my raid group. So I'll stick to my survival build so we can continue to 2-heal fights.

Yes, you seem to be a little old school


I, too, love the DS timing mechanism (but I hope one day Blizzard will understand that BS, not necessarilly the heal part of DS, need to stack with unmitigated received damages...).

But, Blizzard does not need to remove tank stat on gear to make people understand they do not want tradionnal tanks anymore. For one part, I strongly doubt they'll do that, it comes in opposition with their "the player should always have a choice" philosophy. But what they can do is design encounters with little incoming tank damage and a great need of DPS for fast transition... like a lot of fight in ToT (at least in 10HM). Actually, at least in 10 man
- cannot tell for 25 - in an heroic context, a tank who DPS is more valuable than a tank who survive by a large margin.

And evend in full haste stuff (with something like 13k, I know I have to drop down a little since I'm overcapped) my healers keep continue telling me that I don't take many damages and that they hardly need to heal me.


In SoO fights seems to be about many adds management... discipline in which Blood does not shine to say the least.... and which value greatly parry/dodge. So, many DK will use some avoidance stuff again (me include)... and that's certainly not for the amazing(*) riposte bonus.


As a tank I see myself of the protector guardian of my raid... I see my primarily job like "execute the fight > survive > hold aggro > dps". But survive does not mean "be immortal" and I don't really see the point of being able to solo an heroic boss... only to die from enrage.
The tank job is what the raid need for progress, no more, no less. If it's dps, go dps, if it's survival go survival.


Ultimately I agree with you : I, too, prefer to have to play with my survavibility. It's just FAAAR more interesting and skilled than spamming DS/RS like a tard without a second though thanks to the very high amount of haste we heave. But, if you really want to be an heroic raider you have to do what the raid need, not what you would like to do.


And for the "If the raid needs more DPS I'll do it (but the DPS better evaluate themselves and up their throughput)" part, we will talk about this again when you'll face a 0.3% wype on the last pull of a week during progress due to enrage. Apart from very specific encounters, a raid ALWAYS need some more DPS.


Oh, and to stick with the original topic : I tend to use the top ilvl gear I'm able to drop if they have at least one of my prefered stats. Actually it's haste/mastery, and I see no reason to change either of that for SoO - apart, perhaps, change the 3 prioritary stat from crit to dodge.



(*) Amazing only by the fact it's so useless.

[Ikrekot]

Wasn't aiming that at you. I do understand your thoughts about 10m tank dps since I've been in the same situation.



I'd go for: Thok's Tail Tip
The healing from this trinket is much greater than the focusing crystal. Also, it would be pretty good if you had riposte, strength proc, and got a massive death strike. Plus it would 9% haste,mastery,and crit passive at 2/2 upgrade level for more fluidity with the rune regeneration.

Scenario: you hit the boss with death strike for 350,000

Tailtip increases healing by 9%. 350,000 * .09 = 31500 extra healing for a total of 381500

Juggernaut converts 3.14% of damage into healing. 350,000 * .0314 = 10990 extra healing for a total of 360990

There is a lot to consider between the two.

But Juggernaut convert all damage. Look on AoE fights with adds and dots on every add + BB spam. Rune Strike isn't hitting low too. You need add every ability to Juggernaut not only DS.

[Kinnil]

I am fairly new to Heroic tanking. The guild I am in was still progressing through H ToT last week and have now switched to SoO. I have been following the method that you call "heavy mastery" and I have really liked it. My DPS is usually close to a bad dps so for a tank I don't feel bad about it, it usually is near what my pally OT can pull (unless it is a pally solo tank encounter).

The question that I am currently having issues with is what is a good "cap" for mastery. I am currently at 210% unbuffed and so reach around 240% buffed. I read you have a goal of 300% but other people are saying a "cap" for master is 250%. I am trying to line up my own idea of BiS and have seen a mastery projected at 292% buffed.

I don't have a ton of experience in SoO yet but I have seen a good amount of uptime on my BS and very smooth damage intake so far. I do raid 10M and don't know if there is a difference to the "cap". I do know that we 2 heal the majority of fights and my healers have stated that I am very easy on them.

I am only asking as like I said I am fairly new to Heroic raiding and I feel that all members in a raid should do their best to help the raid succeed. My personal beliefs are that a tank should focus on keeping the boss from killing dps and healer, and they do this by staying alive and keeping agro, and then it is killing the boss. Any guidance would be appreciated.

[Cryopathy]

I am fairly new to Heroic tanking. The guild I am in was still progressing through H ToT last week and have now switched to SoO. I have been following the method that you call "heavy mastery" and I have really liked it. My DPS is usually close to a bad dps so for a tank I don't feel bad about it, it usually is near what my pally OT can pull (unless it is a pally solo tank encounter).

The question that I am currently having issues with is what is a good "cap" for mastery. I am currently at 210% unbuffed and so reach around 240% buffed. I read you have a goal of 300% but other people are saying a "cap" for master is 250%. I am trying to line up my own idea of BiS and have seen a mastery projected at 292% buffed.

I don't have a ton of experience in SoO yet but I have seen a good amount of uptime on my BS and very smooth damage intake so far. I do raid 10M and don't know if there is a difference to the "cap". I do know that we 2 heal the majority of fights and my healers have stated that I am very easy on them.

I am only asking as like I said I am fairly new to Heroic raiding and I feel that all members in a raid should do their best to help the raid succeed. My personal beliefs are that a tank should focus on keeping the boss from killing dps and healer, and they do this by staying alive and keeping agro, and then it is killing the boss. Any guidance would be appreciated.

Only you can really make that decision for yourself. It depends on your own skill, the skill of your healers, and many other things. I can tell you that it's very unlikely 250%-300% mastery will be necessary for 10H raiding, if the previous tier is any indication. It's certainly the safest you can play, but you will be sacrificing a lot of DPS to get there.

My suggestion to you, if you're new to Heroic raiding, is to start conservatively. Gear for survival, and if you find you're having no problems, start slowly shifting away from gearing for max survival to increase your DPS.

Think of tank gearing as a continuum between max DPS and max survivability. In order to contribute to your raid the best you can, you want to find the sweet spot on that line where you are able to survive while also contributing as much DPS as you can.

[Deleted]

So which dps trinkets can actually be used by the tanks?
Seeing as Thok's Tail Tip (which looked great) doesn't work on blood-specced characters.
The Eye Of Galakras doesn't work either, which if a shame because of the str proc.

Is the Fusion-Fire Core a given? What about single target fights?
The only decent option looks like the Skeer's Bloodsoaked Talisman, giving a static 1959 str and a crit buff...

[Sukoidha]

So which dps trinkets can actually be used by the tanks?
Seeing as Thok's Tail Tip (which looked great) doesn't work on blood-specced characters.
The Eye Of Galakras doesn't work either, which if a shame because of the str proc.

Is the Fusion-Fire Core a given? What about single target fights?
The only decent option looks like the Skeer's Bloodsoaked Talisman, giving a static 1959 str and a crit buff...

Where do you see that Thok's Tailtip doesnt work for tanks?

[Tojara]

The amplification trinkets (both) will work on tanks. It's just the non-tank one won't actually use the proc, same with the healer/caster one for healers.

As far as trinkets go, the cleaving one is fairly insane and is one you should look into getting. It's best on a tank by far.

[Deleted]

The only issue with the haste build is that you'd might as well go full haste rather than patching up mastery -and- haste.

Personally I'll go for flat out mastery w/ def trinks for maximum 'I cannot die'. BDKs are in no position to climb the tank DPS meters so I've given up trying, I'd much prefer to just be invincible.