I am requiring my guild to do their spec's "Gold" Proving Grounds - thoughts?

[Normie]

depends on your guild. tbh i would rather quit wow then raid with people that cant take 5 min out of their schedule to get gold. Progression with such people is going to be slow as fuck xD so yeah if they cant do endless 10 i wouldnt bother raiding with em.

But then again i'm not a part of your guild and i haven't got a clue what sort of raid environment you're running all guilds have to make a choice in regards to how casual they want their team.

What is the procedure for getting gold in 5 minutes? I'm curious.

[Deleted]

Proving grounds teaches nothing? I'd like to see how far all the dpsers posting here could get on endless.

Would like to see you heal raids they way you heal PG as mistweaver, glhf with 0 uplifts.

[Tucci]

My guild leader wanted a silver requirement for everyone to raid. She tried and failed silver tank so many times she eventually just got her husband to do it for her. I can't get them to fucking realize how important keybinds and macros are, they just won't listen. So I would say you need to tell your guild keybinds are a requirement above all else. Because once they have those down, everything else will fall into place and people will get gold no problem. It's not a hard thing to do although some classes may need to change specs. Personally I had to go arms on my warrior because fury wasn't critting and no crits = no dps at all.

[Blufossa]

Personally I think its bulllshit. I couldn't care less about proving grounds and I'm not doing it...period.

This for me too. I hate the idea of some weird formal training to kill a boss in a video game...

[Pengalor]

It's an idiotic metric. Might as well require a certain Brawler's Guild rank too, it's about as balanced and relevant.

[Amerrol]

Eh, if it was required I'd probably do it simply because I plan to do it eventually anyway. I did Bronze and Silver as Disc Tuesday after raid just to see it. I'll probably do Gold in a week or two, and Endless once the patch has become a bit stale. Potentially having to regem and find some gear to replace some pieces that I can't use will be a pain, but I'll probably get through Gold with reforges and a spirit flask.

That being said, I think it is quite silly to require anything from a casual one day a week guild. A long while ago I was in a casual 10 man guild when I came back from a break sometime during Cata. We raided two days a week (super hardcore compared to OP's guild ), and no one gave a shit what you did, or how you performed. They were friends who had been playing for a long time together, and didn't really care if they progressed. They had fun just raiding together. It seems like everyone is like that in OP's guild, except the OP himself.

Your requirement is silly. I just cleared 14/14 last night, and when I told the officers in my guild about this thread, they thought I was joking. You are clearly not happy leading a casual guild if you are trying to enforce methods of player improvement that even semi-hardcore guilds find ridiculous. I do think the PG is a way to develop player skill, and I would encourge people to try it, but making it a requirement for anything is just dumb.

[Rogabr]

The meta doesnt work on it, or the cloak, or set bonuses for that matter, since its just like challenge modes and all of that is disabled and you are scaled down to 463 ilvl. Which sucks for a lot of classes that are not that good at that ilvl. 2 of the best players in my guild literally can't beat the gold DPS challenge as fire mage for example because the spec just isn't good enough at that ilvl, and can't be arsed to spec frost and reforge/regem.

the proving grounds (and challenge modes) are scaled in a very...lazy way

without going into a shit ton of maths or finding the post about it (i believe it was in the combat rogue PG discussion) the way it works is that higher ilvls will have better stats (even when scaled down) compared to say, LFR Gear scaled down slightly, to the point that someone in full heroic gear from ToT would have a MUCH (over 1k extra stats over the whole gear set) easier time than someone whos in MSV LFR Gear due to the way it scales and how much extra stats they would have.

not to mention better procs from trinkets and stuff.

My guild leader wanted a silver requirement for everyone to raid. She tried and failed silver tank so many times she eventually just got her husband to do it for her. I can't get them to fucking realize how important keybinds and macros are, they just won't listen. So I would say you need to tell your guild keybinds are a requirement above all else. Because once they have those down, everything else will fall into place and people will get gold no problem. It's not a hard thing to do although some classes may need to change specs. Personally I had to go arms on my warrior because fury wasn't critting and no crits = no dps at all.

if your main tank cant even manage to get SILVER tank then be prepared to progress slower than a snail, or level up a tank alt and just take over once you get timeless gear / some alt runs, nothing is more detrimental to a raid than a horrible main tank (and subsequently guild(raid?) leader, Fuck that.

[Silfury]

Wave 19 on my 546 assassination rogue, but it taught me pretty nothing other than "use CDs". This just teaches how to use certain skills and to "max your skills". Nothing more.

just fyi - gear is scaled down to 463

[MoanaLisa]

That's the gold requirement: to weed out players who want to be carried.

And if you raid with these people on a regular basis how would you not already know the players who want to be carried? Personally, if one wishes to encourage their raid members to visit the proving grounds--especially those who might need a bit of tuning up--there's nothing wrong with that. It might assist you in making a first pass at recruiting as well although the ability to mesh with a team and learn a fight on the fly is much, much more important than having a gold in the useful but highly artificial environment of the proving grounds.

To me, making it a requirement is not good leadership for already existing guild members. I think it's a mistake. I also question your apparent lack of awareness shown in the quote.

[Pengalor]

If your members have raided any current content and got at least say about halfway through, then proving grounds is useless requirement. However its not something to gquit over... Considering you've come to forums for advice you seem to be a GM who doesn't always think he's right. So the three that left could have just said they didn't want to do it due to time constraints.

If i had been raiding in the guild for a while and showed I am a competent <insert role>, I would think it pointless to get proving grounds achievements, would i quit like a 10 year old that can't get his way? No, if I HAD to do it to raid, I'd grit my teeth and get through it.

Proving grounds is more of a test or competence test for new players and people who don't know there role/rotation/etc. It's a good requirement for people you haven't raided with before, not PuG's but rather new guild members, that is if they don't have lei shen or sha patch appropriate achieve :P

A raid that is requiring a Proving Grounds achievement to attempt to get SOME progress is simply not worth being in unless it's entirely casual with friends (and if it's with friends then requiring an achievement from them is just the epitome of ridiculous). If you care about progress then you're not going to require some bullshit achievement, you're going to drop the people who aren't performing and get new ones who know what they're doing. This honestly reminds me of Gearscore back in Wrath, it's a similar level of nonsensical metrics.

[l33t]

I'm sorry, but that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. What will you require after they get gold in PG? 1700+ in arena to show their reactions? Completion of pet ahievements to show readiness to spent lots of time? 200 mounts to be sure they have money to raid? Pfft.
I've completed healer's endless 30 with my Holy Priest the first day patch go live, and I assure you, it has NOTHING in common with challenges healers meet in raids, nor it can teach a healer something useful for his raiding.

[Tankitbetter]

Your requirement is silly. I just cleared 14/14 last night, and when I told the officers in my guild about this thread, they thought I was joking. You are clearly not happy leading a casual guild if you are trying to enforce methods of player improvement that even semi-hardcore guilds find ridiculous. I do think the PG is a way to develop player skill, and I would encourge people to try it, but making it a requirement for anything is just dumb.

If your guild killed garrosh, then you don't need PG as a metric. You're ilvl 549. Most of our raid was 505 on wednesday.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sorry, but that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. What will you require after they get gold in PG? 1700+ in arena to show their reactions? Completion of pet ahievements to show readiness to spent lots of time? 200 mounts to be sure they have money to raid? Pfft.
I've completed healer's endless 30 with my Holy Priest the first day patch go live, and I assure you, it has NOTHING in common with challenges healers meet in raids, nor it can teach a healer something useful for his raiding.

Slippery slope and hyperbole all in one! Congrats!

[Willas]

This is a really dumb idea.

[Deleted]

And if you raid with these people on a regular basis how would you not already know the players who want to be carried? Personally, if one wishes to encourage their raid members to visit the proving grounds--especially those who might need a bit of tuning up--there's nothing wrong with that. It might assist you in making a first pass at recruiting as well although the ability to mesh with a team and learn a fight on the fly is much, much more important than having a gold in the useful but artificial environment of the proving grounds.

To me, making it a requirement is not good leadership for already existing guild members. I think it's a mistake. I also question your apparent lack of awareness shown in the quote.

Yes, alot more can be gained from your own experience to evaluate people, i for one know several people who lack the will to even bother trying PG, but when they step into raids they do the business.

[Tankitbetter]

And if you raid with these people on a regular basis how would you not already know the players who want to be carried? Personally, if one wishes to encourage their raid members to visit the proving grounds--especially those who might need a bit of tuning up--there's nothing wrong with that. It might assist you in making a first pass at recruiting as well although the ability to mesh with a team and learn a fight on the fly is much, much more important than having a gold in the useful but highly artificial environment of the proving grounds.

To me, making it a requirement is not good leadership for already existing guild members. I think it's a mistake. I also question your apparent lack of awareness shown in the quote.

I would challenge you to find me ever saying I've raided with these players before.

[majesta]

I see mediocre guild making demands that most of their players will do, but hate. This in turn will lead to descent when the raid finally hits a wall. People will rage, others will silently stop logging online and before you know it *poof* no more raids until you recruit. Then that is only a bandage. The root of the problem is in the ego that leads the raid.

Ego is the whole problem with the PvE and PvP scene. People think they are so cleave hammer of blast bolt awesome when they run a 463 Heroic dungeon in 522 Epics that they are allowed to /flex LOOK AT MAH METERZ. In reality you let gear carry or other players.

The proving grounds mean shit. I play like ass when I am by myself. It is only until I am in that group environment competition kicks in and I then shoot laser beams out my hands and lightning bolts out my ass. The proving grounds are gimicky. Use x glyph and y CDs to win. Big deal. This crap should have been learned through the leveling process. Instead Blizzard treats leveling now like some bastard child that if you just give some shinnies it will grow up fast and piss off without any real knowledge on how to play the class. See Rogues stacking avoidance gems/enchants and healers stacking hit.

In other words. Stuff like this just shrouds the mediocre in their mediocrity allowing to think they are so faceroll awesome!

[Amerrol]

I am hoping it will help make players better in some ways, sure. Rising to the challenge - which some are having to do - of doing Gold is making them research their class better, look up strategies, etc. It's getting them engaged in making them better players. That's awesome.

Lackluster's post is full of slippery slope fallacies. It's not really logical to say that I'll be requiring certain ranks in the limited-entry brawler's guild or for a 1750 in arena. That's just silly.

I hope this wasn't a serious statement. Replace the word Gold with Brawler's Guild or 1750 in Arena, and you get the same outcome. All three teach you beneficial skills sure, but none of them adequatly simulate a real raid enviroment. Saying one is illogical over another is bullshit because they all make you a better player. Seems you just put arbitrary value on PG for some reason.

[Tankitbetter]

I hope this wasn't a serious statement. Replace the word Gold with Brawler's Guild or 1750 in Arena, and you get the same outcome. All three teach you beneficial skills sure, but none of them adequatly simulate a real raid enviroment. Saying one is illogical over another is bullshit because they all make you a better player. Seems you just put arbitrary value on PG for some reason.

You aren't reading in context. The context is Lackluster said "What's next? Also requiring a 1750 arena rating? Requiring a rank in brawler's guild?"

Both are ridiculous ideas based on slippery slope - that somehow, me doing this will also make me require 2 more things that aren't really connected.

[Spotnick]

Getting gold would require me to spend thousands of gold regemming for spirit and putting a crappy meta gem since the legendary is disabled, and legendary cloak is not working.

Obviously if somebody wanted to force me to do those, I'd say fine, pay for it.

DPS one was a joke though. It started to be interesting at wave 8 of infinite however, would require a better strategy that would require more time that I wanted to give to that thing.

[Pengalor]

You aren't reading in context. The context is Lackluster said "What's next? Also requiring a 1750 arena rating? Requiring a rank in brawler's guild?"

Both are ridiculous ideas based on slippery slope - that somehow, me doing this will also make me require 2 more things that aren't really connected.

How about this. Take out the word "also". Let's say you ONLY required a 1750 arena rating. Or ONLY a certain rank in Brawler's Guild. The point being made is it's not a consistent or meaningful metric of anything when considering what you meet in a raid. You wanna see how someone performs in a raid-like situation? Run a Heroic or an LFR with them, watch how they perform when having to make up for someone else's mistake or having to adjust on the fly. Requiring some random achievement is just lazy, it's a hands-off approach.