I am requiring my guild to do their spec's "Gold" Proving Grounds - thoughts?

[Tankitbetter]

Demaning that people have gold in PG is just as wrong as demanding that people have 1750 achiv or completed all of the Brawler's guild. Non of those achivs proves anything about how you perform in an actual raid enviorment.

You said that your groups ilvl was 505. Go and clear Throne of Thunder and watch how people perform there instead of trying to do flex while demanding that people have gold achiv in PBs.

The ilvl increases each week. Next week, 510. Week after, 514. Week after, 518. With 535 pieces from Timeless Isle, cheaper ilvl 522 gear from valor, and 527 pieces from the LFR that opens up next week, it shouldn't be an issue. I am pretty sure all my guys are already 515+ but I want to make sure I don't mess with a person who has a busy work week this week and can't get on much.

Other than the 3 who gquit, no one has told me it's "Demeaning" - maybe they have a different viewpoint than you?

[Floopa]

If their specs are brain dead, they should have no problem getting gold.

Are you completely clueless? lol.

[Tankitbetter]

No, I mean hands-off since, in order for this requirement to mean anything, you'll deny anyone who doesn't have the achievement. No inspecting their play, asking about their experience, checking their raid achievements, and no accounting for beneficial personalities.

PG is borderline useless for those kinds of things. Maybe you can learn a rotation in there, that's about it. You don't have to do anything spectacular, you don't have to plan your positioning, you don't have to learn how to interact with the rest of the players, to space yourself, to watch timers, to understand complex mechanics. What PG does is already done and done better through questing and 5-mans.

If it's so easy, then what is the issue with the requirement? I mean - I completely disagree with you when you say you don't learn much from PG. I personally didn't but I've been playing the game for over over 9 years already. Not much surprises me anymore.

I can tell you - for a fact - that my raiders learned something. Why do I know this? They told me.

[yzzie]

[QUOTE=Tankitbetter;22399129]There are several of you guys who have replied - hardcore raiders that take for grant the knowledge you have.

When I suggested a resto shaman use capacitor totem to help with incoming damage, he asked "What's that?"

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Yup, but that's just it. I worked for a long time at my class, and actually it's just an alt that became a main. You got a mix of people with different abilities, telling them to prove themselves in PGs or else they can't raid, when actually some of them are just gonna need a lot of time and encouragement and RAID experience to get better. I got to be a decent raider by RAIDING
Some players just won't want to do that work, and you can find out much easier than forcing some silly in game metric on them. I dunno, it just seems it's a bit of a case of, 'the beatings will continue until morale improves' approach. Not ok for casual, imho.

[Therealmagoo]

The problem with this is, some classes can do it easily compared to others, look at DKS for instance, you can get gold with your eyes closed but some other classes have a hard time getting past silver.

[kbyelol]

half your spells are unbound. I'd gquit too. +1 for your 3 smart raiders that left.

[Tsuna]

I absolutely think that raiders should be able to perform to a gold standard. The difficult parts of any of the challenge modes are not in gold difficulty but on the upper waves of endless anyway so I don't see what's so difficult.

[Deleted]

The ilvl increases each week. Next week, 510. Week after, 514. Week after, 518. With 535 pieces from Timeless Isle, cheaper ilvl 522 gear from valor, and 527 pieces from the LFR that opens up next week, it shouldn't be an issue. I am pretty sure all my guys are already 515+ but I want to make sure I don't mess with a person who has a busy work week this week and can't get on much.

Other than the 3 who gquit, no one has told me it's "Demeaning" - maybe they have a different viewpoint than you?

I know that ilvls will increase alot over the weeks, that wasn't my point however, my point was that you want to know that people can perform. And since you had a low ilvl in the raid, I suggested a raid that is ment for lower ilvls, like ToT. During the raid, you as a raid leader should be able to spot quite easily who is slacking and who isn't.

You also missunderstood a typo I made. It was supposed to be "demanding" not "demeaning". Not sure how you can miss that one though since it clearly says "demanding" after 11 words and same sentance.

I absolutely think that raiders should be able to perform to a gold standard. The difficult parts of any of the challenge modes are not in gold difficulty but on the upper waves of endless anyway so I don't see what's so difficult.

If you havn't done Gold on each class and each spec then you can't claim that gold is a standard for raiders. Take a look at this video http://www.twitch.tv/hutchytv/b/461694505 and compare it to a raid healing monk.

[Deleted]

I don't even have Bronze on my main. By the OP his misguided standard I must be a baddie then.

/shrug.

[Pengalor]

If it's so easy, then what is the issue with the requirement? I mean - I completely disagree with you when you say you don't learn much from PG. I personally didn't but I've been playing the game for over over 9 years already. Not much surprises me anymore.

I can tell you - for a fact - that my raiders learned something. Why do I know this? They told me.

Then they shouldn't be raiding. If you are going to bring people who can't even be bothered to have a basic understanding of the class then you have no place to complain about mistakes or lack of progress.

I'm against it because I'm against any and all metrics that prove nothing. I can't tell you how many groups turned me down because I didn't have a certain achievement or certain boss kills. Requiring something so meaningless is insulting to people who are already expressing an interest in being part of your group.

[Tankitbetter]

half your spells are unbound. I'd gquit too. +1 for your 3 smart raiders that left.

My defensive cooldowns are bound to my Naga mouse. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[Williee]

Umm it might be a decent guideline of seeing if a person know's their role but not everyone has the time to work on proving grounds and new timeless isles to improve their gear for siege of org. So before you require someone for it, make sure priorities are straight. I rather have my raid members spend time looking up a fight then proving they are gold in proving grounds. Whether or not, they can get gold over a few weeks or whenever they get the time to, is a different case.

[Tankitbetter]

Then they shouldn't be raiding. If you are going to bring people who can't even be bothered to have a basic understanding of the class then you have no place to complain about mistakes or lack of progress.

I'm against it because I'm against any and all metrics that prove nothing. I can't tell you how many groups turned me down because I didn't have a certain achievement or certain boss kills. Requiring something so meaningless is insulting to people who are already expressing an interest in being part of your group.

Well, I do agree that some group requirements are ridiculous. PuGs, I mean. I know for a fact next week they are going to ask raiders to link a piece of flex loot or an achievement for the first 4 bosses in this week just to get in to new flex raids. It's silly.

For the guild, it's a very easy test to see who wants to be carried and who doesn't. Also, as someone mentioned on page 2, a player with a good attitude who is learning can be turned in to a good player. The players asking for help - and learning - are the ones that I want.

[kamuimac]

I can tell you - for a fact - that my raiders learned something. Why do I know this? They told me.

could u pls enlighten us what did they learn ? cause most classes need to compeltly revork their game style they use in HC raiding just to beat gold cause with the style we play we would never been able to beat it in most cases -_-

[Tankitbetter]

could u pls enlighten us what did they learn ? cause most classes need to compeltly revork their game style they use in HC raiding just to beat gold cause with the style we play we would never been able to beat it in most cases -_-

We aren't hardcore raiders.

[Amerrol]

I absolutely think that raiders should be able to perform to a gold standard. The difficult parts of any of the challenge modes are not in gold difficulty but on the upper waves of endless anyway so I don't see what's so difficult.

You realize this is a guild who raids one day a week in Flex mode right? While OP and some of his friends seem to have experience, most of them have probably never done more than LFR. What's easy for you will be almost impossible for them.

[Alltat]

I would probably take it as an insult. I have gold because I thought it was fun to get, but I sure as hell wouldn't get it just to prove to a raid leader that I'm competent. The main issue is that the proving grounds are more about five man healing skills than raid healing skills. Too much focus on interrupts and crowd control, too little focus on throughput-on-demand.

I'm sure that PG can be very useful to new players, but completing it doesn't really say much about whether you're done learning.

[Sithalos]

I got gold on all three on the first day. They're not hard. Hell, I got tank silver on my warlock.

I don't think it matters either way.

[Tankitbetter]

You realize this is a guild who raids one day a week in Flex mode right? While OP and some of his friends seem to have experience, most of them have probably never done more than LFR. What's easy for you will be almost impossible for them.

My point exactly, Amerrol :P

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I would probably take it as an insult. I have gold because I thought it was fun to get, but I sure as hell wouldn't get it just to prove to a raid leader that I'm competent. The main issue is that the proving grounds are more about five man healing skills than raid healing skills. Too much focus on interrupts and crowd control, too little focus on throughput-on-demand.

I'm sure that PG can be very useful to new players, but completing it doesn't really say much about whether you're done learning.

Absolutely agree. They aren't done learning. But it does show that

1: They want to learn
2: They're capable of learning
3: They're willing to put forth some work to learn.

Good things, no?

[Thelxi]

Requiring? sounds stupid for a guild trying to get things going. Asking people to get gold and checking on them? fine.