Thoughts on the new Warchief

[Thage]

Because the actions of one individual equate to the values of an entire race?

When most of that race backs the genocidal, racist maniac who uses the other races as cannon fodder and utterly shatters their trust in that race's ability to rule, that's when that race loses its place at the top of the power structure. That's the lynchpin of all this--the other Horde races no longer trust the orcs with unchecked power. That's why Vol'jin rebelled and why the others backed him up almost immediately. Hell, Lor'themar even went to the Isle of Thunder explicitly to look for something he can use to make sure Garrosh doesn't target Quel'thalas when Lor'themar rebels along with taking down Lei Shen.

The reason Vol'jin got the pick was because he ended up being the one pulling the revolution together and, yes, being smart enough to realize the rebels needed backup. His choice was between a three-way war between his rebels, the Alliance, and the Kor'kron, or getting the Alliance to back him and having the numbers to take Garrosh down. I know, crazy thought--someone uses their brain rather than their nuts when they plan a siege, and with an Old God's heart in his city, Garrosh presented a far more clear and present danger than Varian (who could at least be relied on to conduct himself with honor as an ally of convenience).

[Deleted]

it doesn't make sense to you, because you can't comprehend it, you can't put yourself in that situation, and so can't make a comparison to it right now.
this is where so many arguments fail in these threads, because people can't think outside there proverbial box.

Lolwut? You're comparing apples and oranges. End of.

[Thage]

Actually, he did pretty much the opposite. The whole rebellion thing is what ripped the Horde apart and that was totally Vol'jin's doing.

Lor'themar was already preparing to either defect or rebel, and went to the Isle to get enough power to make either statement stick. Sylvanas, according to Kosak, had already purged the Kor'kron from her city and begun backing Vol'jin. Baine backed Vol'jin the second he established Razor Hill as a forward base. Gallywix sent engineers as soon as things started running smoothly in Razor Hill.

What happened was the rebels threw Garrosh out and laid siege to his city after taking enough of his shit. If anything, Vol'jin brought them together using Garrosh as a target for their ire.

[Trassk]

Really? Everything we know about Vol'jin? How about Shadows of the Horde? I take it you've read that, right? If you can't see how that book evolved Vol'jin into a leader figure, than I'd say you're just in denial.
Accusing me of only talking in implications is pretty ironic, as that's all you have offered, yourself.
And you want to dismiss my arguments purely out of disrespect for my point-of-view? Well then, let's even things up : your signature says all that needs to be said about your point-of-view.

you can explain vol'jins story and back story in 15 seconds or less. It can take around a minute or more to explain thralls, or even Varians.

[Thage]

you can explain vol'jins story and back story in 15 seconds or less. It can take around a minute or more to explain thralls, or even Varians.

If you want to pull the backstory, here's Thrall's in 30 seconds:
Thrall was born a slave, ran away, became Doomhammer's second, ran the Horde, left it to focus on life as a shaman, and came back to help take Garrosh down.
Here's Varian's:
Varian was born royalty, his dad was assassinated, his kingdom burned down, his people took refuge in Lordaeron, he comes back, he's kidnapped, he comes back, he's angry, he mellows out, he's the big Alliance hero.

Anyone's story can be simplified into a 30-second chunk.

[Sole-Warrior]

Vol'jin's approval rating = highest in history

[speehs]

I don't care for Vol'jin as a character, or trolls at all for that matter (yes, I'm racist). Vol'jin has never seemed like much of a leader to me, nor does he inspire any Horde pride. He's a second-in-command guy, not suited to be the head honcho. I really don't see him thriving as Warchief. Still, Horde is Horde, and at least it wasn't some prissy Blood Elf.

[Arrashi]

Well first off, you're implying Vol'jin makes sense at all, everything we know so far about this guy says that he shouldn't be Warchief at all, advisor maybe, but not Warchief. Second, you're implying Vol'jin isn't "pseudo-shocking" and that he is not a "novelty factor" himself.

There are plenty of oldschool Horde canidates, if you think that Thrall is "too neutral", then apparently you're way to ignorant of lore to even be considered a part of this conversation.

"Fo' Da Horde"...What a joke....



When Arrashi, who is usually full of violent messages and a seething hatred for all things that aren't morally black, is making sense, what does that say about the opposition?

This means that siege of org story is so bad, i facepalmed so hard it caused me permament brain damage and calmed me a little.

On serious note: People are upset about vol'jin because its dull suprise, that satisfy noone, doesnt leave blizzard with few options to progress story further, and after entire expansion of blizzard spitting on horde/orc fans, is final slap into face.

[Wildberry]

Really? Everything we know about Vol'jin? How about Shadows of the Horde? I take it you've read that, right? If you can't see how that book evolved Vol'jin into a leader figure, than I'd say you're just in denial.

I have and I hardly see how that book shows ANY leadership qualities that Vol'jin has, face it, you just want something new, and Vol'jin's your man, that doesn't make him competent, nor does it make him a good leader.

And you want to dismiss my arguments purely out of disrespect for my point-of-view? Well then, let's even things up : your signature says all that needs to be said about your point-of-view.

I'm saying that this is a conversation for people that actually know the lore, and if you still feel as though Thrall is "too neutral" you probably don't know enough lore to even warrant people even taking your opinions into consideration. The alleged "Neutrality" of Thrall isn't something that I would classify as "Up for debate."

When most of that race backs the genocidal, racist maniac who uses the other races as cannon fodder and utterly shatters their trust in that race's ability to rule, that's when that race loses its place at the top of the power structure.

Oh yes, all Orcs are terrible...Spare me...

I take it you're completely going to disregard the Orcs who were being abducted by the Kor'kron in "Tides of War" before a rebellion was even considered? What about the Orcs at Razor Hill that defected? How about the Orgrimmar Refugees in Razor Hill? Or the Orcs like Nazgrim, that don't agree with what's going on, but are oathbound. Yes, let's toss ALL of that out of the window, so you can have an easier time framing your argument of "All Orcs are bad, I want change, I don't want an Orc Warchief AT ALL!".

That's the lynchpin of all this--the other Horde races no longer trust the orcs with unchecked power.

Interestingly enough, I think I remember Vol'jin saying something along the lines of: "Da Horde be needin its true Warchief, now, more den eva", granted Trolls can't fucking speak properly so I may have misheard.

That's why Vol'jin rebelled and why the others backed him up almost immediately.

Garrosh=/=The Orcs. Vol'jin rebelled because Garrosh tried to have him assassinated, the others rebelled because Garrosh himself had pissed every single one of them off.

The reason Vol'jin got the pick was because he ended up being the one pulling the revolution together

Vol'jin hardly did anything to pull the revolution together, if anything we should be praising Garrosh for doing that. The Darkspear Rebellion was ready to form at a moments notice, Lor'themar was planning on doing it before Vol'jin's rebellion even started.

and, yes, being smart enough to realize the rebels needed backup. His choice was between a three-way war between his rebels, the Alliance, and the Kor'kron, or getting the Alliance to back him and having the numbers to take Garrosh down. I know, crazy thought--someone uses their brain rather than their nuts when they plan a siege, and with an Old God's heart in his city, Garrosh presented a far more clear and present danger than Varian (who could at least be relied on to conduct himself with honor as an ally of convenience).

Actually, no that's wrong. Baine was the one who suggested Vol'jin look for "Aid outside of the Horde", Vol'jin knew that Baine was right and that it was necessary, but wasn't pleased with the thought.

[Orby]

Love Vol'Jin other than Carine (now dead) he was the only Horde leader I liked

[Trassk]

On serious note: People are upset about vol'jin because its dull suprise, that satisfy noone, doesnt leave blizzard with few options to progress story further, and after entire expansion of blizzard spitting on horde/orc fans, is final slap into face.

exactly, and I want them to know that.

[Deleted]

you can explain vol'jins story and back story in 15 seconds or less. It can take around a minute or more to explain thralls, or even Varians.

If you can summon it up in such a short sentence, than you've clearly missed the point.
Plus, I do not see how one equates one's amount of history with =/= one's worthiness to play a significant current role, anyhow.
Depth of lore is more important than wealth of it.
Yes, few have Thrall beat on either ground (if any), but he is the exception, and always will be. But we all know he gave up the position once before (admittedly to go fight a greater evil, but then once that evil was gone, he still did not return). With the questline with Aggra in Cata, we learn of Thrall's inner desires - a greater one being to relinquish the title of warchief of the Horde for good, so he can raise a family with Aggra. So he, at this point, was automatically out of the running. Anyone paying attention at the time, would've seen this.

[Wildberry]

If you can summon it up in such a short sentence, than you've clearly missed the point.
Plus, I do not see how one equates one's amount of history with =/= one's worthiness to play a significant current role, anyhow.
Depth of lore is more important than wealth of it.

I've stepped in puddles deeper than Vol'jin's lore, the guys a piss poor leader, ~10 pages back there's an in-depth look at his story, I wrote, I won't spoonfeed it to you, but I do encourage you to look at my post history so you can atleast have a glimpse of how ridiculous your claims are.

Yes, few have Thrall beat on either ground (if any), but he is the exception, and always will be. But we all know he gave up the position once before (admittedly to go fight a greater evil, but then once that evil was gone, he still did not return). With the questline with Aggra in Cata, we learn of Thrall's inner desires - a greater one being to relinquish the title of warchief of the Horde for good, so he can raise a family with Aggra. So he, at this point, was automatically out of the running. Anyone paying attention at the time, would've seen this.

He never gave the position up, at the time, he promoted Garrosh to "acting Warchief" basically a seat warmer, he didn't anticipate that he would be gone for long (Months were his rough estimate of a "long time", not years.) That changed after Deathwing broke the World, even after Deathwing was defeated, he was still doing the equally important job of healing the world. As far as his "desires" in the elemental bonds quest. I guess we should count Thrall's desire to start a family on the same level as Thrall wanting to split Varian's throne in two, or Thrall being pissed at Garrosh for killing Cairne, or Thrall wishing torment upon Gul'dan's spirit for the crimes he committed. I don't think you understand what exactly that was about. It wasn't "Thrall's plans for the future", it was "Thrall's deepest emotions split in a way that left them unchecked by reason".

[Deleted]

I'm saying that this is a conversation for people that actually know the lore, and if you still feel as though Thrall is "too neutral" you probably don't know enough lore to even warrant people even taking your opinions into consideration. The alleged "Neutrality" of Thrall isn't something that I would classify as "Up for debate."

Once again, no arguments or evidence presented, just implication. If my posts are worth your time enough to openly bother dismissing, then why not provide this "obvious" evidence I'm apparently missing? If you want my arguments on this matter, then refer to the post I left prior to this one (the one in response to Trassk).

[Thage]

Oh yes, all Orcs are terrible...Spare me...

I take it you're completely going to disregard the Orcs who were being abducted by the Kor'kron in "Tides of War" before a rebellion was even considered? What about the Orcs at Razor Hill that defected? How about the Orgrimmar Refugees in Razor Hill? Or the Orcs like Nazgrim, that don't agree with what's going on, but are oathbound. Yes, let's toss ALL of that out of the window, so you can have an easier time framing your argument of "All Orcs are bad, I want change, I don't want an Orc Warchief AT ALL!".

All orcs, no. Enough that the other races can't trust them? Yes. When patterns spring up, when there are more orcs (overwhelmingly so) who side with Garrosh in the Siege of Orgrimmar than there are those who stand up against him, it sends the message to the other races that those orcs standing up and fighting him are in the minority. It sends the message that the orcs, tacitly or otherwise, approve of how he runs things.

Interestingly enough, I think I remember Vol'jin saying something along the lines of: "Da Horde be needin its true Warchief, now, more den eva", granted Trolls can't fucking speak properly so I may have misheard.

Yes, Vol'jin trusts Thrall. I can't believe, though, that he thinks of Thrall as the baseline for the orcish race, especially not after the battlefield in the Barrens and what we see in the raid itself.

Garrosh=/=The Orcs. Vol'jin rebelled because Garrosh tried to have him assassinated, the others rebelled because Garrosh himself had pissed every single one of them off.

And yet, going into the raid, look at how many orcs back Garrosh versus how many defect to the rebellion.

Vol'jin hardly did anything to pull the revolution together, if anything we should be praising Garrosh for doing that. The Darkspear Rebellion was ready to form at a moments notice, Lor'themar was planning on doing it before Vol'jin's rebellion even started.

But when the chips were down, all of them fell in line behind Vol'jin. Even Sylvanas, the Horde's resident narcissistic borderline-sociopath, backed him up rather than do her own thing as per usual.

Actually, no that's wrong. Baine was the one who suggested Vol'jin look for "Aid outside of the Horde", Vol'jin knew that Baine was right and that it was necessary, but wasn't pleased with the thought.

He wasn't pleased, but he realized it had to happen. Part of being a smart leader is knowing when your buddy's got a good point. Vol'jin could have told Baine that he didn't need the Alliance and gotten the revolutionaries slaughtered in a three-way war; instead, he smartened up, listened to Baine (because, having made friendly contact with the Alliance before, Baine just might be onto something there), and when an adventurer swung by, basically appointed that adventurer his de facto contact within the Alliance until contact could be established with Varian.

[Deleted]

He never gave the position up, at the time, he promoted Garrosh to "acting Warchief" basically a seat warmer, he didn't anticipate that he would be gone for long (Months were his rough estimate of a "long time", not years.) That changed after Deathwing broke the World, even after Deathwing was defeated, he was still doing the equally important job of healing the world. As far as his "desires" in the elemental bonds quest. I guess we should count Thrall's desire to start a family on the same level as Thrall wanting to split Varian's throne in two, or Thrall being pissed at Garrosh for killing Cairne, or Thrall wishing torment upon Gul'dan's spirit for the crimes he committed. I don't think you understand what exactly that was about. It wasn't "Thrall's plans for the future", it was "Thrall's deepest emotions split in a way that left them unchecked by reason".

In that same questline, it also show his greatest desire in relation to Varian is to actually forge peace with the Alliance, actually.
See, if your outlining of Thrall's intentions regarding the position of warchief were true, then how come the story turned out as it did? You are in denial my friend, Blizz write the story, this outcome was their intention, not your perceived "real" outcome that never came to pass. You are seeing what you want to see, and selectively ignoring that which doesn't fit into your perspective.

[Wildberry]

See, if your outlining of Thrall's intentions regarding the position of warchief were true, then how come the story turned out as it did? You are in denial my friend, Blizz write the story, this outcome was their intention.

Yes this outcome was their intention, they've had it planned for ages.

I assume you're going to disregard:

Metzen: Hey Horde! You're getting your Warchief back!

Blizzard: We may have misspoke earlier in regards to the Warchief.

- - - Updated - - -

friend

Also, I would prefer you not to use this word when addressing me.

- - - Updated - - -

horde/orc fans, is final slap into face.

On a side note: I never knew you were an Orc fan, you always struck me as the Sylvanas type.

[Trassk]

On a side note: I never knew you were an Orc fan, you always struck me as the Sylvanas type.

tbh, you don't need to be an orc fan to know what she said to be true.

[Wildberry]

tbh, you don't need to be an orc fan to know what she said to be true.

Oh, I know that, but if Arrashi isn't, that'll just put me in stitches.

AND completely dispell everyone's counter argument of "Only super hardcore Orc fans hate Warchief Vol'jin"

[Rend Blackhand]

Why don't blizzard just go the whole hog and delete Orcs? Or do they want Siege of Crossroads to kill Thrall and stretch the shit-on-an-orc story for another expansion?