FLex worse than LFR? That awkward moment when....

[nulir]

wait, wtf, this is heroic lfr we're talking of, it's like, supereasy o_o

Yeah but we're from Al'Akir so obviously it's easy for us.

GL on world first as always Apex!

[tru]

They still dont teach entry level raiders anything. the "one difficulty" model was pretty tough and was a hell of a lot more rewarding to each player. if you pugged a guy that had been raiding a previous tier then he more than likely had the skills to do well in new content. todays crowd wants everything given to them. Flex ilv is about H tot right? that is a joke in itself. 4 difficulties now... this game is such a joke of its former self but then again in my "peak MMO raiding days" i am glad I got to experience WoW in its prime why anyone still plays this game seriously beats the hell out of me but i guess the "next gen gamers" that have taken over are the ones who shaped it into what it is today.

[Deleted]

First week of flex have been a pain for me since 70 of the people in every pug seems to expect 1 shot everything and leaves after one wipe, so after wasting time finding a group and waiting the group to build up and clearing all the trash only to repeat that like 5 times. But like one hour ago I found a group of people who did not rage quit after 1 wipe so all bosses died withing 1-3 attempts.

[SodiumChloride]

So wrong on so many levels.

I don't think he was serious.

I'm half serious. If Blizzard made the game stupid hard like, like Battletoads level of difficult, do you think the game will survive?

Difficulty has to be at a reasonable level. Challenging but not so frustrating that the players just give up.

Making the vast majority of the content too hard for 90% is not a good way to make a game. Fortunately, Blizzard isn't totally stupid. That's why we have LFR - which the elitist are trying to kill in their misguided attempt to "improve" the game.

[pallyopness]

I'm half serious. If Blizzard made the game stupid hard like, like Battletoads level of difficult, do you think the game will survive?

Difficulty has to be at a reasonable level. Challenging but not so frustrating that the players just give up.

Making the vast majority of the content too hard for 90% is not a good way to make a game. Fortunately, Blizzard isn't totally stupid. That's why we have LFR - which the elitist are trying to kill in their misguided attempt to "improve" the game.

Neither LFR or Flex is ultimately too hard... people need to quit whining that they can't one shot bosses or it's too hard. That is the issue. Things take effort and time which many of the whiners I see refuse to give. It isn't even much time at that....In our flex we had a rogue in half blue pvp gear half green gear and we took him and still had 0 issues....

[SodiumChloride]

Neither LFR or Flex is ultimately too hard... people need to quit whining that they can't one shot bosses or it's too hard. That is the issue. Things take effort and time which many of the whiners I see refuse to give. It isn't even much time at that....In our flex we had a rogue in half blue pvp gear half green gear and we took him and still had 0 issues....

You tailor to game to the preferences of your players, not the other way around.

Some want it easy, some want it difficult. That's why most games have difficulty levels.

[l33t]

I'm half serious. If Blizzard made the game stupid hard like, like Battletoads level of difficult, do you think the game will survive?

What's wrong with Battletoads level of difficulty? We used to complete that game when we were kids...

Difficulty has to be at a reasonable level. Challenging but not so frustrating that the players just give up.

But difficulty IS at reasonable level. Some bosses at the start of MoP were too hard (Shekzeer HM, Amber shaper HM, Garalon on every difficulty), Blizz understood that and we now have no unbearable ubertight enrage timers. Bosses have mechanics that need to be adopted and learned. That mechanics are not to be ignored. Of course you'll have to wipe a couple of times on every boss until most people in your raid will learn what to do. It's not a Sims game, you know. A little effort from your side and you'll conquer everything. Its a computer game, you know, not a rocket science

If that is hard for modern gamers - I feel ashamed for them, because there is nothing really hard in learning how not to fail in a computer game.

Though I, by myself, prefer more enrage-based mechanics than reaction-based slasher-like action.

Making the vast majority of the content too hard for 90% is not a good way to make a game. Fortunately, Blizzard isn't totally stupid. That's why we have LFR - which the elitist are trying to kill in their misguided attempt to "improve" the game.

Elitists are not more true raiders than lfr crowd, to be honest. Top end raiders don't dive a damn about lfr existence.

[PrairieChicken]

I feel that flex is overtuned for its audience - It will be easy for normal raiders but it isn't really viable for people used to LFR.

Flex is like normals minus dps requirements, so if you fuck up mechanic you still die like normals so the truly casual people are not going to be happy with that, and it will only make lower leveled normal raiders switch to flex

[SodiumChloride]

What's wrong with Battletoads level of difficulty? We used to complete that game when we were kids...



But difficulty IS at reasonable level. Some bosses at the start of MoP were too hard (Shekzeer HM, Amber shaper HM, Garalon on every difficulty), Blizz understood that and we now have no unbearable ubertight enrage timers. Bosses have mechanics that need to be adopted and learned. That mechanics are not to be ignored. Of course you'll have to wipe a couple of times on every boss until most people in your raid will learn what to do. It's not a Sims game, you know. A little effort from your side and you'll conquer everything. Its a computer game, you know, not a rocket science

If that is hard for modern gamers - I feel ashamed for them, because there is nothing really hard in learning how not to fail in a computer game.

Though I, by myself, prefer more enrage-based mechanics than reaction-based slasher-like action.



Elitists are not more true raiders than lfr crowd, to be honest. Top end raiders don't dive a damn about lfr existence.

This is what happens when a game becomes too hard,



This is in general is not what you want happen when you are trying to attract a huge player base.

[Anzaman]

I feel that flex is overtuned for its audience - It will be easy for normal raiders but it isn't really viable for people used to LFR.

As Looking For Raid -player, I'll comment on this.

Today I managed to get myself a group from trade chat. We managed to defeat Immerseus on first try with no problems... on The Fallen Protectors we wiped few times due the fact we were still clueless "how exactly to defeat them" but eventually got them down. Then we continued our journey towards to next encounter, Norushen, and wiped on it because we hit enrage but got it down on second attempt.

But Sha of Pride... we tried and tried but we just couldn't get him down, in the end our raid disbanded due frustration.

[melodramocracy]

You tailor to game to the preferences of your players, not the other way around.

Some want it easy, some want it difficult. That's why most games have difficulty levels.

This game has multiple difficulty levels. Most of the content across the entirety of this game IS actually quite easy, as it's really nothing more than a matter of execution against repeatable, nearly 100% predictable boss behavior, and putting math in your favor as far as gear stats go.

It is fairly interesting to see how things slowly evolve in the game, in response to the playerbase however. In Wrath, I recall Sindragosa being one of the first fights that really REALLY put a player at a disadvantage if he / she was a keyboard turner (assuming your raid followed a certain strat). In more recent tiers, that sort of movement capability is the rule, rather than the exception.

[announced]

510 is a fine ilvl for flex btw, u could even get away with 500 if u know ur class inside and out, but its more likely 510 will save u when u make a few mistakes.

back to flex its a welcome addition to raiding, lfr only gives 528 gear anyway, which is much worse than 540 from flex.

[Grubjuice]

It's not other people job to teach or help new players, the majority of players (or humans in almost every situation in life) don't give a shit about anyone but themselves or people close to them. While I agree that inviting bad players is there own fault to some degree, kicking people is just as much part of being a good raidleader.

A raidleader is there to guide you in big lines of what is going to happen soon, not to hold peoples hand and guide them every step of the way.

But I agree with you, for different reasons.

It is man's duty to man that we teach each other what we know.
I would not want to live in a world where knowledge and experience is not freely shared in the spirit of friendship and brotherly-concern

[melodramocracy]

I feel that flex is overtuned for its audience - It will be easy for normal raiders but it isn't really viable for people used to LFR.

Flex is like normals minus dps requirements, so if you fuck up mechanic you still die like normals so the truly casual people are not going to be happy with that, and it will only make lower leveled normal raiders switch to flex

It's far too early to make an assessment like this about the mode. It can, and will be, nerfed on its own just via folks gearing up in SoO LFR. Revisit it a month from now, after people have a bit more experience w/ the fights, and see if you still feel that it's too difficult.

[Dazzy]

You find out that LFR is actually x10 better than queing Flex with players from your own server.

How many times do you people (yeah I said it) need to be told: Flex is not intended for pugs. LFR is intended for pugs.
Flex is so you can play with your friends or guild (any number besides 10 or 25), so you DON"T NEED TO PUG.
If you choose to pug, it will be unbearable.

Flex is scaled from normal. Would you take 9 random idiots into normal? No. Then why would you take 13 random idiots into flex which theoretically is the same difficulty as normal?
Get your paper dictionary out and look up scaled, obviously google and wikipedia failed you.


As for the thread title: Flex worse than LFR? That awkward moment when....you find out your friends suck at wow?

[Ronduwil]

This is in general is not what you want happen when you are trying to attract a huge player base.

Can you elaborate? It's a 19 minute video of two guys playing Mario Sunshine while shooting the shit. I don't want to sit through the entire thing. What exactly don't you want to happen?

[Nero Duskwind]

And then people complain how everyone is an elitist who won't let them stay in their Flex groups because they were bad, and it's totally unfair and Flex is a terrible feature and it's not their fault at all please fix Blizzard. It really is depressing to watch what the WoW community has degraded into.

That's a social/community issue. That's on the community members themselves to fix, not Blizzard. Blizzard already tried and we ended up with LFR. Look how that's turned out. Flex Raid is practically an alternative iteration of LFR that puts more organizational control and responsibilities in the hands of the player and the content tunes upwards accordingly.

You can't make groups take poor players. Those players would be better served by being proactive, tweaking their gameplay, and organizing their own groups than by crying for nerfs. Nerfing Flex isn't going to happen because doing so will essentially turn it into a second crack at LFR loot and even further deteriorate the current state of Normal raiding.

[soamazzing]

Seriously, I did flex with a bunch of basically fresh geared 90s (no one over 515 ilvl, most less than 510) none had seen tot normals and most of the players were not playing their alts optimally and we still facerolled the content. It sounds a lot like the majority of players in this game want to be handed raid loot and have no investment of time or effort to do so. Is that really the experience casuals are looking for? Raiding is the last real challenge in this game and casuals want it diluted down to something that can be afked through. No one in our flex run was doing more than 100k dps (most around 75-80k), healing was not fantastic, tanking was mediocre and we still downed everything with ease. Get real, and take some initiative. I am one of the few HM raiders that does not mind seeing casuals running around in a legendary or getting to experience end game content/get titles for LFR/Flex, it does not affect my gameplay to see others have good gear or have a cool title/meta achieve. Saying flex is to hard is a joke though, flex is a great opportunity to play with friends cross realm or raid with casuals in your guild who may be good but just cant afford the time in their lives to raid consistently. If you do not like it, do not do it. Wait for LFR and enjoy that.

[Nero Duskwind]

We thought we could use flex for recruit.
Worst. Idea. Evar.

We basically had our main raid (8 of them) carrying 10-12 undergeared clueless baddies making the encounters hard as the normal ones, hitting enrage timers and going oom on every fight because 2 out of 4 healers' output was ridicolous.

It probably would have worked out better for you guys if you were trying out about half that number. :/

[Ronduwil]

How many times do you people (yeah I said it) need to be told: Flex is not intended for pugs.

Wrong.

Flex is scaled from normal.

Wrong again. Someone already posted a link to the Blizzard blog, A Raid for All Seasons, that specifically indicates:

To fill this void, we’re in the process of developing a new Flexible Raid system, which includes a new difficulty that sits between Raid Finder and Normal difficulty, while still allowing friends, family, or pick-up groups to play together.

Don't know where you're getting your information, but now you stand corrected.