FLex worse than LFR? That awkward moment when....

[Normie]

but how about the LFR people? They are just going to make same mistake over and over and die.

Why do you think that? Why do you think that people in LFR who are running from wind bomb to wind bomb are windowlicking idiots? In general, they're not. In general, they're just jerks who know better. In general the people who are standing in stuff in LFR or are doing things to make the encounter needlessly difficult are people who know what to do, but are just trolling the group because they are pissed off at the world and want to share some of their despair with everyone else.

[frumper]

Why do you think that? Why do you think that people in LFR who are running from wind bomb to wind bomb are windowlicking idiots? In general, they're not. In general, they're just jerks who know better. In general the people who are standing in stuff in LFR or are doing things to make the encounter needlessly difficult are people who know what to do, but are just trolling the group because they are pissed off at the world and want to share some of their despair with everyone else.

I don't doubt that LFR people can figure it out. I think the issue is there isn't a lot of room for error in the mechanics, at least at the moment. I'm sure it'll change a little as people start doing flex with LFR SOO gear instead of 502 or lower gear. But screwing up in Flex leads to wipes, and even gear won't overcome that. The best thing about FLEX is that 1 guy has the power to boot the trolls. With a decent leader and some effort, I think the general LFR player can overcome it just fine.

[Ronduwil]

in LFR I don't need to move from four kings army,bow...etc in my under-gear mage since it won't kill me...
but it was another story why I try it in normal...

I call bullshit. In LFR you don't need to move from four kings army because they don't one-shot you. There's still a healer out there who has to waste their mana healing through your sloppiness. If the entire raid does as you do it's a wipe. Just because a handful of players can fail on mechanics in LFR doesn't mean mechanics can be completely ignored, just like one person AFKing through LFR doesn't prove everyone can just AFK through LFR. Also Spirit Kings were tuned for a 472 ilevel. If you have 500+ ilevel you're not undergeared for LFR; you're overgeared for it.

Also, LFR wasn't for pugging; it was for random groups. There's a big difference. Pugs are much more organized. When selecting players for a pug or when deciding to join a pug you can look at things like achievements and gear levels before the fights even start. If someone in the pug isn't pulling their weight you can /kick them without needing to vote, and you can replace them with whoever you want. People seem to be confused about the difference between pug and random. They are not the same thing. Flex was designed for pugs (and friends and family guilds), and LFR was designed for randoms.

while in flex even if you are 518 DK dps "full gems and enchantments" it's still easy to get one shot if you are just dps like mindless zombi like I did in LFR...
(In LFR you don't even need to know anything about most bosses as dps )

So what? The same holds true in normal mode raids and I've successfully pugged those many times. Just because you have to pay attention to mechanics doesn't mean the content wasn't designed to pug.

basically Flex is easier than normal(people need to used their brain) but a lot harder than LFR (mindless zombi)

Flex = normal pug with less armor ilvl requirement (since boss have less damage and health)

I'm not disputing that, but that doesn't mean that Flex isn't designed for pugs. Pug is not the same as faceroll.

[Kaleredar]

If the mechanics are same as normal what's the point of flex?

Because no one PuGs normal modes anymore beyond grabbing one or two heals and a tank every once and a while.

Obviously, of the people who can't commit to a raiding guild (the large, large majority of the WoW player base) and are therefore unable to do Normal Modes, some don't want to have nothing but dull-as-dirt LFR to do for gear and progression or hope that some guild will randomly have a DPS spot open.

[Jessicka]

It's not other people job to teach or help new players, the majority of players (or humans in almost every situation in life) don't give a shit about anyone but themselves or people close to them. While I agree that inviting bad players is there own fault to some degree, kicking people is just as much part of being a good raidleader.

A raidleader is there to guide you in big lines of what is going to happen soon, not to hold peoples hand and guide them every step of the way.

But I agree with you, for different reasons.

You're in a 10-25 player co-operarative raid. You're helping eachother by the very definition of the game. If you're not, you're the guy being carried, just stick to Brawlers Guild.

[Alter Ego Pablo]

Do flex with people you know and maybe guildies. Have a jolly good time. Problem solved.

[Blackmist]

Give it a few weeks. Once people get an idea of the bosses in an environment where you can't fail (LFR), as well as a bit more gear, random Flex groups will become more bearable.

Right now you have undergeared people, with no idea how to play, no idea what the bosses do and no idea how to act in a group where they can be kicked by one person. It's going about as well as I can expect. Right now it's more for guilds to do when they would have done a quick gearing LFR night, or for guilds that can't handle the same bosses in normal mode.

[Zatetic]

This whole thread is just a bunch of elitist comments.

I've grouped with quality players for both flex and lfr. I dont even know how you can complain about people that you select. Dont select them if they are less skilled than youd like.

Not like flex actually requires skill or anything.

[Cyrops]

That awkward moment when you do previous expansion raids and realise your guild is worse than pugs...

[vaccine]

I had a flex pug on my 515 tank alt yesterday. We had 20 people, 2 tanks, 5 healers and failed hard on the first boss. They kept wanting to do this strategy one of them had come up with (who was 1/14 normal) because he was the expert where they sat in only half the room and ignored P2 adds on the second half, whcih anyone who knows the fight knows will nuke the raid for about 700k when all the adds hit close together. So each transition phase 10-15 died. I tried reasoning but he kept shouting at us that he'd killed the boss and he knew the tactics (I didn't bring up I was wearing Liberator of Orgrimar title) and just left after a few more wipes to the same thing.

I decided to start my own one instead with a 515 ilvl req (though may have been too low with the island items) and keep the numbers low at 10 as this seemed to downscale the mechanics to much more managable numbers when your healers are shaky. We stomped the first boss pretty easily though healing was a bit dodgy towards the end, great. The second boss though... I don't know if it's an inherent problem with pugs or just this group but they couldn't follow the simple instruction of DPSing the marked adds. Had a shadow priest doing great DPS but he just hit Rook or the caster the entire fight refusing to switch to anything. We had about 5 wipes to adds being up too long (and people not throwing the mark to the tank) and then I called it because it was too painful.

I think pugs can work fine on it if you know your class and listen/follow the raid leaders instruction, but if you're just going to treat it like LFR, ignore the mechanics and do whatever you want you're going to most likely fail unless the rest of the group are carrying you. I dread to think how they'd have handled Norushen orbs or moving on Sha. In future weeks I'm just going to make sure I catch the guild run.

[Deleted]

Adding extra raid modes with diffrent difficulties in order to make raiding more plausible for everyone is the worst mistake ever for PvE.
Blizzard continues to feed the below-average players by making every raid mode easier. Lower ilvl loot isn't encouraging anyone to strafe higher to normal for better loot, because the ilvl is too similar. People can roughly do the same dps as ppl with HC/normal gear. Why invest more time in higher difficulty raiding if you can be nearly as good as those raiders by completing a mindless lootfest version of it?
Flex mode could've been one of the best things yet if it would be as difficult as normal.

[Deleted]

Farming on the isle yesterday when someone in chat linked A Vision in Time Quest and asked where they had to go for it (Quest text says use The Vision in Time inside the Siege of Orgrimmar). When someone said "Inside the siege of Orgrimmar he said thankyou, he got a lot of grief from other players and ended up swearing at them, so if he was trolling he didn't do very well.

Anyway, point is that I don't know how people get this far in the game when they don't even read what the game tells them so I have no doubt that Flex raiding is just as bad as LFR..

[Jessicka]

Adding extra raid modes with diffrent difficulties in order to make raiding more plausible for everyone is the worst mistake ever for PvE.
Blizzard continues to feed the below-average players by making every raid mode easier. Lower ilvl loot isn't encouraging anyone to strafe higher to normal for better loot, because the ilvl is too similar. People can roughly do the same dps as ppl with HC/normal gear. Why invest more time in higher difficulty raiding if you can be nearly as good as those raiders by completing a mindless lootfest version of it?
Flex mode could've been one of the best things yet if it would be as difficult as normal.

Its no more than reverting to the model of Wrath, which was incidentally the most successful expansion the game has had.

[Whiskra]

No. Kids used to brag about having a big brother who'd beaten the game while actually never having seen anything past the Turbo Tunnel.

No, kids beat those games back in the day because they were all they had, and thus kids bruteforced them until they could finish them blindfolded.

Raiding once followed a similar pattern, but today it's truly "noone gets left behind", and even the easiest of challenges are so difficult for people they either give up or complain (because they know that they'll eventually get their way if they complain enough).

[Deleted]

Its no more than reverting to the model of Wrath, which was incidentally the most successful expansion the game has had.

In Wrath they added HC mode, which was designed to be the more difficult version of the average Wrath raid, which incidentally made it the most successful expansion the game has had based on sub numbers.

[DeadmanWalking]

This is hilarious;
“Blizzard ruined the community when it put in queueing systems!”

Blizzard, “Here you go, go play with your server community.”

“OMG my server sucks and I don’t want to play with them!”

Almost as good as;
“I hate Blizzard for adding a Queue system, now theres no sense of community!”

“You can still make friends and go into all these Qeue’s with friends any time you want.”

“But I don’t want to make friends or build a community unless I am forced to!”

[TooMuch]

I haven't raided much the last 2 expansions, but did Flex last Sunday with a decent group. We cleared 4/4 and wiped 2 or 3 times, mainly because the RL knew the fights and could explain them well. The only problem with flex I have is the unlimited amount of Combat Rezzes (or so it seems, you are only bound by the amount of players being able to do it).

[healzforu]

We have 2 10 man groups and some casuals in guild. We do flex 25 man but only with guildies, no way in hell would i bother to pug into this, my server is med/high and majority of pugs in trade are always stuck on 3rd boss lol. We do this for fun on our off night, but new week and gotta get ready for heroics, flex is our relaxation raid, no pugs allowed lol.

[Jessicka]

In Wrath they added HC mode, which was designed to be the more difficult version of the average Wrath raid, which incidentally made it the most successful expansion the game has had based on sub numbers.

Yet for Cataclysm, Heroic mode went nowhere and 10N disappeared. The options allowed for Wrath's success - not making content harder in general.

[anaxie]

Flex/normal seems hard because 5 mans are a joke or skipped now and LFR is afk to win. Back in my day 5 mans facilitated proper play or you never completed them or moved forward in the game. And no I'm not talking about Cata launch heroics. If your found those hard/ CHallenging you must have 0 raid experience and a poor grasp of what hard is.