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  1. #301
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    i always have some anxiety tanking any instance for the first time with strangers (i always start with LFR to learn an instance before i ever do Flex or normal) because i am afraid my honest mistakes will be confused for carelessness, and that hurst my feels. you know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amatarasu View Post
    After attempting the first wing on LFR last night on an alt, I've basically decided that I'm just not going to bother with it at all this patch. My alts will be getting geared up from Flex from now on.
    timeless isle gear!
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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Have you actually Flexed?

    I don't think he even lifts.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    i always have some anxiety tanking any instance for the first time with strangers (i always start with LFR to learn an instance before i ever do Flex or normal) because i am afraid my honest mistakes will be confused for carelessness, and that hurst my feels. you know.

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    timeless isle gear!
    timeless Isle gear will only take you so far, eternal burdens are this expansion valor (though it seems to be 2 a week at least as opposed to 1 every 2-3 weeks) because you won't do well if you are packing an i450 weapon.

  4. #304
    Now that I actually did LFR, I can say, no, please, give me more flex, never again this disaster. I came in on the second boss where they already had 2 wipes of god knows what. Then 2 more wipes follow on the actual easy part of the thrash. Then Norushen, a wipe at 7% because apparently all this questing that people get shoved down their throats still hasn't taught them how to kill mobs on their own. I left there. I just really cannot muster the energy to do this. Ever. Again without at least 3 other guildies. The dps was tier9, I did at least twice what the guy on #2 did, it's heavy carry and even that is insufficient to kill bosses. Wow, an hour of my life utterly thrown away. T_T

    I don't know. I did Flex earlier this week in a pug and at least that was nice, people from our realm, we could talk some and it was smaller and the amount of idiocy was limited because people actually listen to explanations and read the journal. It's a whole different story. It's totally fine wiping on you know, new mechanics, new stuff, honest misunderstandings and mistakes, but when people say stop nuke softfoot, I expect people to follow up on that. Not continue random shitty nuke with one finger in their ass and the other in their ears.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-09-18 at 04:12 PM.

  5. #305
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorker View Post
    Blizzard added that already. You can check if they achieved proving grounds gold for their spec.
    Proving Grounds is a horrible metric for how good you are in PvE, simply because all players perform differently solo than when they are in a group.
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  6. #306
    Mechagnome Betelgeuse's Avatar
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    I have not tried flex yet, but am (was?) somewhat interested. I don't do normal or heroic raids anymore, no time and no desire to deal with the standard guild group of less than optimal personalities. I will still maybe probably attempt flex raiding just for kicks. I do LFR only now and probably wouldn't play at all if it didn't exist, but that doesn't make me "bad" and "unable to do normal". Maybe Connected Realms will allow a little more leeway in choosing other people to play with that I can bear in a Flex or Normal (or maybe heroic) raid setting. Dead realms are dead.
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  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    i always have some anxiety tanking any instance for the first time with strangers (i always start with LFR to learn an instance before i ever do Flex or normal) because i am afraid my honest mistakes will be confused for carelessness, and that hurst my feels. you know.

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    timeless isle gear!
    I understand the anxiety, and I have it too. But if you're honest and friendly about it, people are more likely to give you smiles and hugs you know, even the LFR people can be nice when prompted to.

  8. #308
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Proving Grounds is a horrible metric for how good you are in PvE, simply because all players perform differently solo than when they are in a group.
    i just don't want any ingame metric to end up like GearScore, that was really toxic to the community and goodriddance.
    a combination of links to achievements, proving grounds ratings, and ilvl should be sufficient.
    having a single metric will lead to some players gaming and abusing that metric, and other players using that metric to discriminate irrationally against perfectly viable prospective teammates.
    .


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  9. #309
    i find that flex so far in 1st week and now 2nd week has been far better to me than LFR. Obviously my story can/will be different and your mileage may vary etc, but in 1st week of flex i went in with 17, lot of healers, made it easier and managed to 1 shot 1st, 2nd bosses, 2 tries on 3rd (only losing out to the 30% soft enrage) and then 2 on 4th. I won 2 items and 2 secrets (still working on the legendary quest)

    in LFR this week i went 2 wipes on 1st, 3 on 2nd, 2 on 3rd, and 1 on 4th, won nothing but 4x gold and 2 more secrets. The flex run also was far faster and of course was more organized and we were on vent, so it was smooth. In LFR it was a clusterf*ck and a few wipes were people accidently pulling boss or not listening to instructions, i ended up being raid leader as i was spamming what to do in big blocks of text, and it seemed to help, but still

    So for me, personally (again ymmv) i like flex a lot better than LFR so far, and the funny thing is, LFR has the exzact same mechanics as flex, just lesser health, the ONLY difference i found was 3rd boss 1st wing, that on LFR instead of having to click the orbs to go into the other dream state thing, it randomly picks players, thats it.

    Everything else was exzactly the same, which i thought was a little weird i was expecting it to be nerfed a bit more, but i guess thats ok too. I'm sure normal is really hard compared to flex/LFR as the ilvl req is higher, my 17 group flex had a mininum ilvl of 520 to join, and i was a tad under that, and did fine, most of my group was 525-535+ maybe a few 540+ but not many...so of course it went smoother than 502 people in LFR just starting it.

    either way the raid was more enjoyable than TOT by far, i cant stand TOT and all its trash wing 1, so annoying, takes forever to get to bosses, and between bosses, i think for TOT they designed/made the raid TO big ,they went for an epic huge raid feeling...but ended up being just to much/to long. In SOO so far its been pretty quick, mininimal trash and boss after boss...as it should be really.

    /endrant

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    all these new bosses are far too advanced to LFRabble.

    Blizzard should make all the bosses in LFR into tank and spank with a dps check, but ofc not too high, otherwise the baddies still wont be able to beat them.
    DPS check? Oh dear god that's too difficult for LFR. Seriously, I have met healers with more dps than some dps. I swear some of these "dps" are just drinking birds hitting on a single spell all fight and died to first big bad fire.

  11. #311
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    But you don't have to be a pro gamer to not be bad at the game. That's where people get confused. You don't have to be pro to want to improve, you don't have to be pro to realize you make mistakes. The majority of players are actually below average, and refuse to get better because everyone who tries to help them is an 'elitist asshole'.
    well it's question of communication and posture.

    players who vent their frustration by saying "kick the baddies" or "Learn to play or GTFO Noob" "/facepalm" without offering advice induce the 'bad' players to drag their feet rather than to seek advice. It merely exacerbates sociopathic behavior on both sides rather than encouraging eusocial behavior.

    not to say that there aren't plenty of people off all abilty levels who will always be sociopaths no matter how nice you are
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  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    But you don't have to be a pro gamer to not be bad at the game. That's where people get confused. You don't have to be pro to want to improve, you don't have to be pro to realize you make mistakes. The majority of players are actually below average, and refuse to get better because everyone who tries to help them is an 'elitist asshole'.
    I'm going to disagree with you slightly here;
    1: Its not that they refuse to get better, its that they don't know that they are not doing it right. They don't look up how to play their class because as far as they can tell they are doing it right. Most people you meet will ask you a question rather than using the phone in their pocket to google it themselves, they don't ask you because it is easier (they probably asked 4 people before you.) but because their brains don't pull up the fact they have the worlds repository for information right in their pockets.

    2: Most people think that saying, "LOL L2P! REROLL!! LOL U SUK!" to someone who is underperforming is 'helping' them, or kicking them from a group for low numbers is 'helping them'. They may not be elitist assholes but they certainly are assholes. Very few players are the type that actually try to help another player. Another trick is approaching a player who could use improvement and not upsetting them, its natural human instinct to reject the ideal you are doing something wrong. You can't tell them "You know your dps is bad, use this talent and this ability' without them rejecting you. I tend to say, "Lets try something out, if you don't like it you can set it back easily, try this talent and see if you notice a big difference." then I suggest noxxic.com to them, as its a more basic 'wow for dummies' website. Most underperforming players have had such badly delivered 'criticisms' that they just chock it all up to assholes, thats not the underperforming players fault, thats the assholes.

  13. #313
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    i just don't want any ingame metric to end up like GearScore, that was really toxic to the community and goodriddance.
    a combination of links to achievements, proving grounds ratings, and ilvl should be sufficient.
    having a single metric will lead to some players gaming and abusing that metric, and other players using that metric to discriminate irrationally against perfectly viable prospective teammates.
    My main has done Sha of Pride LFR, has Proving Grounds Silver because I have no idea how to deal with monkeys as Arcane, and item level 510. I'm going to be expecting to be discriminated against because of my Proving Grounds rating anyway. Metrics made up from other metrics have fewer upsides and more downsides in a community looking for reasons not to take certain players.

    It's a start anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The majority of players are actually below average
    I think there's enough players in WoW to assume a bell curve distribution of skill, and hence it's impossible for the majority of players to be "below average".
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  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Can't they run the current tier in LFR? Why wouldn't that be easier to implement?
    There is no 10-man LFR, and LFR doesn't scale to accommodate anywhere between 10 and 25 players. In order to account for those people they would to modify LFR to be ... Flex. I don't why you're so outraged about Flex. Guilds that desired normal mode still have normal mode. Guilds that want heroic still have heroic. All the other guilds have Flex, and casual solo players have LFR. Hardcore solo players can still pug Normal and Heroic, but now they have Flex as an additional option. Honestly anyone with the slightest interest in raiding wins here.

  15. #315
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    Now that I actually did LFR, I can say, no, please, give me more flex, never again this disaster.
    LFR is always a mess the first few weeks. At least you didn't say you were forced to run it. So there's that.

    Progress!
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  16. #316
    Depends, if you do flex with a ton of pugs from the same server, it could end up as bad as lfr is currently (4 wipes on Sha, come on...). Or, if you do flex with a bunch of competent guildies, shit dies fast.

  17. #317
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    For that to be the case, 'Average' would be right around the middle of flex and normal. Pre-flex, it would be around half-way finished with ToT pre-5.4. 23068 guilds to this day, 2058 (give or take a couple dozen) of which were 25 man guilds according to WoWprogress. Which means 21010 guilds were 10 man.

    210100 players downed up to Ji-kun on 10 man.
    51450 on 25 man.
    261550 players downed Ji-kun on Normal mode.

    Even assuming a 75% PvP, 25% PvE split of players, 261.5k players doesn't come anywhere near half of the PvE population. (7 million / 4 = approximately 1.75 million)
    Hence, Normal was too difficult last tier.
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  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Norushen:
    avoid purple beam of death that moves slowly enough for you to die of old age before it kills you itself
    You would not believe the amount of trouble my LFR group had with this aspect of the fight.
    OT: I'm looking forward to trying Flex. I didn't try it last week because I wanted to try LFR and get a (very) basic feel for the raid first. I do find it kind of funny how people are complaining about pugging Flex on the first week. Do you guys remember how long it took before people could PuG TOC or ICC? Give it a couple weeks. Let people learn the fight and get better gear. And if it's still a problem after that, get rid of the people that are holding you back.

  19. #319
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    No, normal was NORMAL.
    You've clearly shown that Normal isn't normal in the post I quoted!
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  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    You've clearly shown that Normal isn't normal in the post I quoted!
    It's certainly badly named. "Hi, 90% of the players, you are subnormal!" Great message for a game design to be sending to the customers, don't you think?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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