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  1. #861
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    to point one...have you? there are a few bosses that one person messing up can kill the raid, but there are a plethora of groups good enough to have that person just die
    and then going in and 24 manning it, person still gets loot (since after CoT hyjal, when people wouldn't get the rng drops' the infernal tanks sitting off in the distance / his healer, just tanking em all, or the rng drops during trash, being to far away to get loot, blizz changed it so if you're in the raid / in the instance you get a chance to roll on loot.
    Um I can think of situations in every single fight in Heroic ToT where 1 person can wipe the whole raid.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Hunters have their own version of Army of the Dead for gods sake! Oh and the rotations are more complex? Most are 3 buttons and they GLOW when you are supposed to push them! Oh and those complex mechanics? You mean the same old move out of bad stuff and avoid cleaves? Oh those got dumbed down too because now there is a huge red circle on the ground showing where the bad stuff is going to hit.
    OH NOES like 5 classes can have more than one pet out for a short duration. EVERYONE IS THE SAME!! That is stupid. There are overlapping abilities yes and there are abilities that a similar or serve similar functions, which is a good thing. Each class still plays very differently....but you aren't totally screwed if you have say no shamans in raid.


    Bullshit on the glow when you are suppose to push them. Maybe when they are affected by a proc. But that isn't necessarily when they need to be pressed.

    3 buttons? What class requires only 3 buttons? My druid uses a minimum of 8 every encounter. My priest and dk are the same. My monk? More than 3. My GFs hunter? More than 3. Hell only toons I got that require 3 buttons are like level 10.

    There has almost always been a graphical indicator not to stand in something. Sometimes it was badly done and wasn't very distinct against the background.
    Last edited by gamingmuscle; 2013-09-20 at 06:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
    My starfall brings all the mobs to the yard.
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  3. #863
    The Lightbringer Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Um I can think of situations in every single fight in Heroic ToT where 1 person can wipe the whole raid.
    ehh tortos isn't one of them, but in cases like that, last tier, you send the person in to die instantly, get a MD on him then have tank pick boss up. dead instantly - no wipe.

    i was saying for every tier, and yes lol, people were getting carried in vanilla, my rogue Dierwolf got carried in MC, as a fresh 60 (xfered him with BoA's to Emerald - Dream, to remake a nelf rogue to farm herbs in Freya's room, extra vanish's(shadowmeld) to despawn the protectors.

    i died lol, damn near every TRASH pull, much less boss pull, if i wasn't getting geared up by some good friends i'd ofragequit lol.

    BC, not to sure sunwell was a bit to hard until a few of the bosses got nerfed.

    i hold onto my statement that anyone who got a legendary past it's current tier got handed a welfare legendary.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  4. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    Bullshit on the glow when you are suppose to push them. Maybe when they are affected by a proc. But that isn't necessarily when they need to be pressed.

    3 buttons? What class requires only 3 buttons? My druid uses a minimum of 8 every encounter. My priest and dk are the same. My monk? More than 3. My GFs hunter? More than 3. Hell only toons I got that require 3 buttons are like level 10.
    Considering my main is a shadow priest I call BS on your priest, unless you are arguing semantics because it's like 5 and those spells are as follows..........keep dots up (2), Mindflay (3), Mindblast (4) and when it procs Shadow Word Death.......the end, now tell me exactly HOW that is complex?
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    to point one...have you? there are a few bosses that one person messing up can kill the raid, but there are a plethora of groups good enough to have that person just die
    and then going in and 24 manning it, person still gets loot (since after CoT hyjal, when people wouldn't get the rng drops' the infernal tanks sitting off in the distance / his healer, just tanking em all, or the rng drops during trash, being to far away to get loot, blizz changed it so if you're in the raid / in the instance you get a chance to roll on loot.

    now, the lovely people i run with, and myself included are not nearly that good, but look at wol, take a dps or two out of the top 5 guilds from last tier, and they'd seriously be able to 23-24 man stuff with no problem at enrage.
    some people are 'carried' by less amazing groups because they manage to stay alive at least half the fight.

    heroics aren't that hard, it's all about learning the dance, and trusting other spec'd people to learn there's, fights a lot easier when tanks know when to pop a cd, healers know when raids going to get burst, dps know where to stand (ofc not in fire but think frosty dog)

    i'd say at least the top 500 guilds could of carried someone last tier. with maybe top 100 or so carried someone completely.(just pulling numbers out of my...i'm really not going to go look at the top 500 / 100 to doublecheck...)

    another point is, a legendary is what blizzard says it is. saying it's supposed to be amazing+rare, is like someone saying female undead mages are the best looking toons.

    it's a matter of opinion, and flawed at that...(some people might seriously think...but it's what you "want to believe" the definition of legendary is)

    the ONLY true legendary by people who say "rare" is a ring that dropped in MC, and atiesh. every other one can be considered welfare with how long people have had to get them.

    I've done both LFR and heroic raiding, the situation you're talking about where a person dies on a boss fight is not the same as the carrying going on in LFR. Especially when the fights are released. And while there are some guilds that will take a beginner guy in and run them thru and let them have epic drops for 100k, I find those situations don't happen very frequently compared to what goes on in almost every LFR out there.

    There's a pretty big difference between being a weak dps in a heroic then there is to LFR, where you got guys that literally do 30 to 40k. Basically, the worst heroic raiders out there still destroy LFR guys lol. Keep in mind those "100k runs" are really only possible in 25 mans, which are already a minority.


    As for the legendary, in a game where you progress your character through gear, I think it only makes sense that the highest level of gear should have some challenge tied into it, strictly my opinion here. That being said, the legendary questline has zero challenge but a lot of grind, which I think has disappointed a lot of people, except for guys that typically never get good gear lol. Beyond that, it appears blizzard is also disappointed with this format, as they have stated they will likely never implement a legendary item this way again, and the fact that the item isn't even a weapon.



    And there's a big difference between getting a legendary thru the older raids, which I'm sure most agreed had an appropriate challenge at the time, as opposed to handing them out via LFR.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Syh View Post
    I think the reasoning behind it is because anybody can get them, as long as they put in enough time to do so.
    Funny. I will not be getting mine for a long time because I chose not to do the PVE crap. Weee, to the 3k Valor Cap I have to do!

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Xdenek View Post
    Not good enough to clear all of naxx and aq40?

    You should look up "disingenuous" in a dictionary.
    So childish.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disingenuous

    When someone tells you something directly with all honesty it's called genuous or sincere. The opposite of disingenuous. Which is what you're being.

    And we were plenty good to clear aq40 or naxx40, just didn't want to grind anymore.

    Next time you suggest someone understand the meaning of a word you should know it yourself.

    So childish.

  8. #868
    Nothing is considered "welfare" until a significant portion of the population can obtain it. If only a handful can, then for some reason it's okay by some people...but the actual name of the item better have a special color because that's what important, as we all know. Silly rabbits, Trix are kids.

  9. #869
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldin View Post
    Nothing is considered "welfare" until a significant portion of the population can obtain it. If only a handful can, then for some reason it's okay by some people...but the actual name of the item better have a special color because that's what important, as we all know. Silly rabbits, Trix are kids.
    And a significant portion of the population has the cloak.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #870
    The Lightbringer Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I've done both LFR and heroic raiding, the situation you're talking about where a person dies on a boss fight is not the same as the carrying going on in LFR. Especially when the fights are released. And while there are some guilds that will take a beginner guy in and run them thru and let them have epic drops for 100k, I find those situations don't happen very frequently compared to what goes on in almost every LFR out there.

    There's a pretty big difference between being a weak dps in a heroic then there is to LFR, where you got guys that literally do 30 to 40k. Basically, the worst heroic raiders out there still destroy LFR guys lol. Keep in mind those "100k runs" are really only possible in 25 mans, which are already a minority.


    As for the legendary, in a game where you progress your character through gear, I think it only makes sense that the highest level of gear should have some challenge tied into it, strictly my opinion here. That being said, the legendary questline has zero challenge but a lot of grind, which I think has disappointed a lot of people, except for guys that typically never get good gear lol. Beyond that, it appears blizzard is also disappointed with this format, as they have stated they will likely never implement a legendary item this way again, and the fact that the item isn't even a weapon.



    And there's a big difference between getting a legendary thru the older raids, which I'm sure most agreed had an appropriate challenge at the time, as opposed to handing them out via LFR.
    actually i was talking about legitimate carries where the "weak dps" you suppose, don't die mid fight on a heroic, they die on purpose at the start, as a group stratagem.
    with the intent to get that person some gear (ehh some people who play AH all day might want some shinies and throw out 20k+ a drop to be split with the guild carrying them) there is a difference between low dps heroic raider, and low dps lfr'der, but another changeup, is something that's been happening throughout all of the xpacks, is people who pay their way to heroic victories. (remember groups carrying people for heroic LK title / chance at mount? that kind of thing, just tell em to die instantly so they won't cause a wipe.

    ahh forgot heroic mount end bosses, those got a lot of people paying up, even in 10 mans, it was done, speed runs in ZA back in BC, people paid for them, spent nearly entire instance dead just so they wouldn't cause a problem mid fight.

    dude, carries in the truest sense have been going on since vanilla, and yes i'm positive a few of them resulted in someone getting carried, getting a rng legendary drop.
    Last edited by Christan; 2013-09-20 at 07:09 PM.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Considering my main is a shadow priest I call BS on your priest, unless you are arguing semantics because it's like 5 and those spells are as follows..........keep dots up (2), Mindflay (3), Mindblast (4) and when it procs Shadow Word Death.......the end, now tell me exactly HOW that is complex?
    My priest is holy/desc. I don't do shadow...but I do dps. He's my for kicks toon. SmiteU on gorefiend...nothing but LFR mediocrity for him!

    Sounds like you are doing it wrong. A quick google on shadow priest rotations gives the following:


    Cast Devouring Plague Icon Devouring Plague with 3 Shadow Orbs.
    Cast Mind Blast Icon Mind Blast if you have fewer than 3 Shadow Orbs.
    Cast Shadow Word: Death Icon Shadow Word: Death if you have fewer than 3 Shadow Orbs.
    Shadow Word: Death can be cast twice before triggering its cooldown, and you should always do so.
    Shadow Word: Death is only usable on targets who are below 20% health.
    Cast Mind Flay Icon Mind Flay on the target when Devouring Plague Icon Devouring Plague is up.
    Apply and maintain Shadow Word: Pain Icon Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch Icon Vampiric Touch.
    Cast Mind Flay Icon Mind Flay as your filler spell.
    Cast the second cast of Shadow Word: Death Icon Shadow Word: Death (which does not generate a Shadow Orb) if you are moving and cannot cast Mind Flay Icon Mind Flay.


    With just that priority list I count 6 buttons...and I bet you use your dispersion and ummm the fiend which would push it to 8

    And the number of buttons isn't enough to show lack of complexity. Add in proc and/or resource management adds to it.
    Last edited by gamingmuscle; 2013-09-20 at 07:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
    My starfall brings all the mobs to the yard.
    Laurellen - Druid Smiteyou - lol holy dps

  12. #872
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    actually i was talking about legitimate carries where the "weak dps" you suppose, don't die mid fight on a heroic, they die on purpose at the start, as a group stratagem.
    with the intent to get that person some gear (ehh some people who play AH all day might want some shinies and throw out 20k+ a drop to be split with the guild carrying them) there is a difference between low dps heroic raider, and low dps lfr'der, but another changeup, is something that's been happening throughout all of the xpacks, is people who pay their way to heroic victories. (remember groups carrying people for heroic LK title / chance at mount? that kind of thing, just tell em to die instantly so they won't cause a wipe.

    The "weak dps" typically are paying a huge amount of money for that carry - for every one guy like that, there's about 1,000 in LFR doing the same thing lol. That happens typically when a guild can significantly outgear an encounter, in a similar fashion to my lvl 90 carrying a lvl 60 thru molten core. At that point the encounter lacks a challenge, and while that does happen, the reality is it happens WAY more frequently in LFR (perhaps because it's free?).

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    My big stink about this game is the dumbing down and homogenization of the classes, which has been brought on by the people who can't be bothered to improve and demand it to be easy, it has been and always will be the gripe you will hear from me.
    This i agree with 100%. I'm not an arena player or even pvper but i didn't whine like so many that I should be able to get the pvp weapons with ratings on them. If that's what people want to do go ahead.

    The game is far more easy now but that's another discussion.

  14. #874
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The "weak dps" typically are paying a huge amount of money for that carry - for every one guy like that, there's about 1,000 in LFR doing the same thing lol. That happens typically when a guild can significantly outgear an encounter, in a similar fashion to my lvl 90 carrying a lvl 60 thru molten core. At that point the encounter lacks a challenge, and while that does happen, the reality is it happens WAY more frequently in LFR (perhaps because it's free?).
    And its widely available and not policed providing the fight goes well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
    My starfall brings all the mobs to the yard.
    Laurellen - Druid Smiteyou - lol holy dps

  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    24 people carry a rogue to Illidan and he walks away with a glaive.

    A guy works hard in LFR/Normal for a year completing the quests and finishing the trials to get his cloak.

    I fail to see how #2 is possibly more "welfare".

    Welfare epics was coined because of how you could get arena epics so quick and easily in TBC, the legendary isn't quick or arguably easy (beating the trial in certain roles in gear current at the time, beating the ToT scenario etc) so calling it "welfare" doesn't sit well with me and just dilutes the word into nothingness
    Why RF is "working hard" for you?

  16. #876
    The Lightbringer Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The "weak dps" typically are paying a huge amount of money for that carry - for every one guy like that, there's about 1,000 in LFR doing the same thing lol. That happens typically when a guild can significantly outgear an encounter, in a similar fashion to my lvl 90 carrying a lvl 60 thru molten core. At that point the encounter lacks a challenge, and while that does happen, the reality is it happens WAY more frequently in LFR (perhaps because it's free?).
    kind of making my point there that there aren't really 'any' legendaries that can't be considered welfare, especially ones gotten after that raid was current tier.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  17. #877
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    My priest is holy/desc. I don't do shadow...but I do dps. He's my for kicks toon. SmiteU on gorefiend...nothing but LFR mediocrity for him!

    Sounds like you are doing it wrong. A quick google on shadow priest rotations gives the following:


    Cast Devouring Plague Icon Devouring Plague with 3 Shadow Orbs.
    Cast Mind Blast Icon Mind Blast if you have fewer than 3 Shadow Orbs.
    Cast Shadow Word: Death Icon Shadow Word: Death if you have fewer than 3 Shadow Orbs.
    Shadow Word: Death can be cast twice before triggering its cooldown, and you should always do so.
    Shadow Word: Death is only usable on targets who are below 20% health.
    Cast Mind Flay Icon Mind Flay on the target when Devouring Plague Icon Devouring Plague is up.
    Apply and maintain Shadow Word: Pain Icon Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch Icon Vampiric Touch.
    Cast Mind Flay Icon Mind Flay as your filler spell.
    Cast the second cast of Shadow Word: Death Icon Shadow Word: Death (which does not generate a Shadow Orb) if you are moving and cannot cast Mind Flay Icon Mind Flay.


    With just that priority list I count 6 buttons...and I bet you use your dispersion and ummm the fiend which would push it to 8

    And the number of buttons isn't enough to show lack of complexity. Add in proc and/or resource management adds to it.
    Really? I count 5, vampiric embrace is an oh crap heal, oh and rarely do I use dispersion but even if I did it's not part of rotation kinda like vampiric embrace, same with the fiend, oh and I was disc all expac until SoO and the disc rotation is so mind numbingly simple and few buttons as well.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    kind of making my point there that there aren't really 'any' legendaries that can't be considered welfare, especially ones gotten after that raid was current tier.

    I don't think anyone is saying that legendaries (besides this one) are welfare when they are current. But yes, after a patch, and especially after the expansion, they definitely become welfare. This on the other hand is the first legendary to be considered welfare on the day of it's release.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    And its widely available and not policed providing the fight goes well.

    I find it's pretty hard to get booted as a dps no matter how badly you do - the only ones that really get booted if a fight doesn't go well are tanks and occasionally healers.

  19. #879
    The Lightbringer Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Really? I count 5, vampiric embrace is an oh crap heal, oh and rarely do I use dispersion but even if I did it's not part of rotation kinda like vampiric embrace, same with the fiend, oh and I was disc all expac until SoO and the disc rotation is so mind numbingly simple and few buttons as well.
    cooldowns aren't part of a priority list they're used as mitigation, even as a healer you wouldn't mindlessly use pain sup or guardian spirit on a tank, cooldowns have no place in a rotation, and are used on demand, when needed. if VE / dispersion etc were used on cooldown, no matter what kind of raid damage was happening at the time, then sure, you can count those two...

    but lets please get back to all legendaries being welfare right now. every, single, one, is gotten with only a matter of time, except atiesh and the ring from MC, not counting sulp hammer because you could get that 3 expansions after the fact. that one is welfare as well.

    a better way to put it...is, depending on how / when you get your legendary, depends on if it's welfare or not, you got your glaives in cata = welfare, got em in BC = not welfare(unless ya paid for runs / or gdkp)
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The "weak dps" typically are paying a huge amount of money for that carry - for every one guy like that, there's about 1,000 in LFR doing the same thing lol.
    Except it's not quite the same thing because there is currently a 38-ilevel difference between LFR loot and heroic loot. This is even more than the difference between Ulduar loot and Heroic Dungeon loot in WotLK. That's why people pay for carries. It's only the "same thing" if you think that being carried through a Heroic Dungeon is the same as being carried to the current expansion's mid-tier raid. Players in WotLK were carried through heroic dungeons (and even through Naxx) all the time.

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