Political Aftermath for Alliance (Spoilers through Siege/new Warchief)

[Trassk]

2. Garrosh said the same thing in The Shattering, which I find amusing. Not really making a point here just find it funny.

no. Garrosh wanted orcs to be the dominating force of azeroth and all other races under his boot. He wanted to wipe out all non-orcs from the world.

My argument is that orcs have been the body of the horde since it began, not because he wants to dominate everything, but because of its nature, how it worked as the example to all races within the horde, upholding honor within it, and giving strength to the horde. It represented more then just what Garrosh thought the orcs where, before garrosh it meant something, the orcs who rescued the darkspear trolls, who rescued the tauren, who policed the forsaken after what happened at the wrath gate. And even before WC3, the orcs bringing all other races into the horde, showing them they can stand against humans and blood elves.

Garrosh fucked everything up, he took that element that made orcs the perfect face of the horde for that very reason, with there brute fighting and noble-savage nature, and made everyone hate orcs because of it, even within the horde itself.

To me, vol'jin becoming warchief isn't a victory, its seeing the destruction of years of racial development for a race, like the orcs, who needed it after the dark horde days, just being ruined, all for the sake of a shock value.

Edit: I have absolutely no problem with orcs not being given much in the way of development, and giving it to other races to shine, infact I would encourage blizzard to do so. But in how they did this in the end, they didn't just put the orcs aside so others could develop, they ensured the orcs place in the story would forever be reduced, despite them being what made the horde what it was.

[Florena]

no. Garrosh wanted orcs to be the dominating force of azeroth and all other races under his boot. He wanted to wipe out all non-orcs from the world.

My argument is that orcs have been the body of the horde since it began, not because he wants to dominate everything, but because of its nature, how it worked as the example to all races within the horde, upholding honor within it, and giving strength to the horde. It represented more then just what Garrosh thought the orcs where, before garrosh it meant something, the orcs who rescued the darkspear trolls, who rescued the tauren, who policed the forsaken after what happened at the wrath gate. And even before WC3, the orcs bringing all other races into the horde, showing them they can stand against humans and blood elves.

Garrosh fucked everything up, he took that element that made orcs the perfect face of the horde for that very reason, with there brute fighting and noble-savage nature, and made everyone hate orcs because of it, even within the horde itself.

To me, vol'jin becoming warchief isn't a victory, its seeing the destruction of years of racial development for a race, like the orcs, who needed it after the dark horde days, just being ruined, all for the sake of a shock value.

Edit: I have absolutely no problem with orcs not being given much in the way of development, and giving it to other races to shine, infact I would encourage blizzard to do so. But in how they did this in the end, they didn't just put the orcs aside so others could develop, they ensured the orcs place in the story would forever be reduced, despite them being what made the horde what it was.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that everyone within the horde hates orcs now. We'll have to see how that story goes in 5.5 or the next expansion. Even then, at least the orcs are still getting story. =P Still puts them leagues ahead of some other races.

[Kozaky]

Trassk... I've been lurking around for a few patches now. Seriously, just chill and watch how the story unfolds. I highly doubt the orcs are being "shoved aside" for trolls. If anything it's the first step to equal representation for Horde races which, as evident by this thread among many others, is FAR more than the Alliance can say about their races.

[Falrinn]

1. The human centric nature of the Alliance is actually one of the biggest complaints from alliance players about the Alliance. And the main thing making it 'bland and boring.' We don't want all our major characters to be humans and many of us, myself included, would gladly take a dwarf leader if it meant seeing multiple races getting significant attention.

Agreed.

Right now the three biggest Alliance characters are Varian, Anduin, and Jaina...all human. I actually advocate Jaina and Anduin be removed from the forefront of events for the next expansion or two simply because it would make room for non-human characters to shine. Jaina can busy herself preparing for what she believes is an inevitable war with the Horde (while sending a few Kirin Tor to aide the Alliance in whatever they are doing as a show of support), and Anduin can spend some time chatting with Garrosh.

And if in the long term Blizzard were to build up a Dwarven character as a viable replacement for Varian as leader of the Alliance, I would be the first to endorse such a move.

[Kozaky]

And if in the long term Blizzard were to build up a Dwarven character as a viable replacement for Varian as leader of the Alliance, I would be the first to endorse such a move.

I'd definitely go for this... once they update the dwarven model. Nightmare fuel, some of those faces are. Maybe the return of a pissed off Magni that learns of what's been going on since he became a shiny rock?

[Combatbutler]

ooh, so make them into green humans you mean.

Right. So all the bullshit about how Thralls a green human and the orcs shouldn't follow his example, now suddenly the orcs need to follow the example and be that way, because it conflicts with any other races view?

I hope the forsaken fucking nuke more alliance territory.

Orcs are ignorant, considering their past, they have to come to terms with it and stop glorifying people who don't deserve it, take Grom for example he was one walking failure, he simply cleaned up the mess he brought his people into, but look how Thrall even now whitewashes his legacy. If the Orcs continue to go on like nothing happened and don't adapt their culture a bit, it is only a matter of time until a new Garrosh arises, considering orcish role models.

Garrosh fucked everything up, he took that element that made orcs the perfect face of the horde for that very reason, with there brute fighting and noble-savage nature, and made everyone hate orcs because of it, even within the horde itself.

Garrosh simply brought up what has been brewing in the mind of the orcs for a long time, they were fed up with thralls stance and ways of life, the majority of the young orcs wanted back to the glorious old days, Garrosh simply brought this dark side of the orcs to the surface.

[Talen]

There are a dozen open threads on this issue and it's been discussed ad nauseum. PLease post your opinions in the existing ones if you feel compelled to beat this dead horse some more.

They're not taken over. Ashenvale was retaken in Cata. Gameplay vs lore, again.

And Azshara? The other NElfs territories? Nor was Ashenvale reclaimed in Cata. The Alliance story STOPPED before that occurred. You stop the Horde doing any more damage but the story in Ashenvale ends with the Alliance poised on the verge of a major counterattack. A counter attack that never happens.

EJL

[Florena]

Orcs are ignorant, considering their past, they have to come to terms with it and stop glorifying people who don't deserve it, take Grom for example he was one walking failure, he simply cleaned up the mess he brought his people into, but look how Thrall even now whitewashes his legacy. If the Orcs continue to go on like nothing happened and don't adapt their culture a bit, it is only a matter of time until a new Garrosh arises, considering orcish role models.

Well to be fair, Grom's actions completely eliminated the blood curse altogether, not just the second dose of it that he brought on in Ashenvale, but I agree that his legacy gets whitewashed.

[AbalDarkwind]

And Azshara? The other NElfs territories? Nor was Ashenvale reclaimed in Cata. The Alliance story STOPPED before that occurred. You stop the Horde doing any more damage but the story in Ashenvale ends with the Alliance poised on the verge of a major counterattack. A counter attack that never happens.

EJL

I believe Wolfheart deals with this. Regardless, Tyrande says, post-Siege, that Ashenvale is now secure in return for allowing the Horde to use Azshara's resources.

[Combatbutler]

Well to be fair, Grom's actions completely eliminated the blood curse altogether, not just the second dose of it that he brought on in Ashenvale, but I agree that his legacy gets whitewashed.

The orcs don't see the good and the bad they dismiss the wrongs most of their heroes did and keep on singing songs of praise for these individuals for what they did right, this is no healthy way to deal with the past, both good and bad need to considered.

[Florena]

The orcs don't see the good and the bad they dismiss the wrongs most of their heroes did and keep on singing songs of praise for these individuals for what they did right, this is no healthy way to deal with the past, both good and bad need to considered.

Very true. My only point is that Grom's sacrifice did at least do more good than just undoing the wrong he'd done two missions ago, but his history is still whitewashed as you say.

[Trassk]

The orcs don't see the good and the bad they dismiss the wrongs most of their heroes did and keep on singing songs of praise for these individuals for what they did right, this is no healthy way to deal with the past, both good and bad need to considered.

orcs are not humans. An orcs principle sense of honor is that of strength, how many they kill on a battlefield of those they call there enemy.
And humans have given orcs nothing to make them think otherwise.

[Florena]

orcs are not humans. An orcs principle sense of honor is that of strength, how many they kill on a battlefield of those they call there enemy.
And humans have given orcs nothing to make them think otherwise.

And the point is the war that you despised and the outcome you hate from that war all stem from that facet of orcish society. In short, the orcs brought their current situation onto themselves because of their culture.

[Talen]

I believe Wolfheart deals with this. Regardless, Tyrande says, post-Siege, that Ashenvale is now secure in return for allowing the Horde to use Azshara's resources.

Wolfheart comes before Cataclsym.

EJL

[Combatbutler]

An orcs principle sense of honor is that of strength, how many they kill on a battlefield of those they call there enemy.
And humans have given orcs nothing to make them think otherwise.

Which is why the orcs hardly learn from their mistakes, they are hardly the only race guilty of such behaviour, but it is the reason why they stray onto a path of senseless bloodshed, their culture is based on war and violence, with a tad of shamanism here and there, such an environment is perfect to create people like Garrosh.

[Trassk]

You keep mentioned how the orcs are at fault in the sense that orcish pride is the blame for all this, infact blizzard themselves seems content with shoving that down everyones throats. Yet why must orcs be the only race who should feel no pride in there race or its heroes of past, well every other race gets to erect statues or monuments or named villages after there heroes?

Captain chin has a statue of himself outside his own castle, try and tell me self pride doesn't seep from his dam pours.

Making out that orcish pride caused all this, well all the other races wield pride in the same way, is just drawing a line for the sake of it, to single out one race for the sake of others.

[Obelisk Kai]

I believe Wolfheart deals with this. Regardless, Tyrande says, post-Siege, that Ashenvale is now secure in return for allowing the Horde to use Azshara's resources.

And I've yet to see it demonstrated somewhere that this is more than Tyrande's opinion, or an attempt to gloss over the facts. Azshara is clearly not in her gift to give.
Sounded to me like she was saying 'I'll let you use what you already have'. Even Varian included it along with Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles as a core Horde territory.

As for Ashenvale, when were the negotiations over it held? In the five minutes since Vol'Jin became Warchief?

I'm open to the idea that the Horde has been driven out of Ashenvale at some point off screen but I've not seen it or read that this happened. Even Wolfheart only implied the Horde's attempts to capture the entire zone failed and they were forced back to their prior lines. Given that Wolfheart seemed to take place directly after the Cataclysm occurred as during Cataclysm (the expansion) the Worgen and Jarod Shadowsong were in place, I see the Ashenvale zone as post Wolfheart rather than pre Wolfheart.

Meaning the Horde had not been driven out of the forest at that point, or that the actions of Horde players in the zone take place prior to Woflheart. They take place after. This actually makes more sense as Zoram'gar outpost was destroyed by the Alliance during the course of Wolfheart, yet was rebuilt in the new orc style during Cataclysm implying the outpost was recaptured.

Is there any hard evidence of the Horde being driven out of Ashenvale completely or is Tyrande just blowing hot air?

[Florena]

You keep mentioned how the orcs are at fault in the sense that orcish pride is the blame for all this, infact blizzard themselves seems content with shoving that down everyones throats. Yet why must orcs be the only race who should feel no pride in there race or its heroes of past, well every other race gets to erect statues or monuments or named villages after there heroes?

Captain chin has a statue of himself outside his own castle, try and tell me self pride doesn't seep from his dam pours.

Making out that orcish pride caused all this, well all the other races wield pride in the same way, is just drawing a line for the sake of it, to single out one race for the sake of others.

It's not just pride, it's pride in bloodshed. Nobody's saying that the orcs can't have pride in their heroes, nobody's even saying that they even have to change. Posters are just pointing out that if the orcs DON'T change and start teaching the bad along with the good, younger generations will probably keep repeating the same mistakes.

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And I've yet to see it demonstrated somewhere that this is more than Tyrande's opinion, or an attempt to gloss over the facts. Azshara is clearly not in her gift to give.
Sounded to me like she was saying 'I'll let you use what you already have'. Even Varian included it along with Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles as a core Horde territory.

As for Ashenvale, when were the negotiations over it held? In the five minutes since Vol'Jin became Warchief?

I'm open to the idea that the Horde has been driven out of Ashenvale at some point off screen but I've not seen it or read that this happened. Even Wolfheart only implied the Horde's attempts to capture the entire zone failed and they were forced back to their prior lines. Given that Wolfheart seemed to take place directly after the Cataclysm occurred as during Cataclysm (the expansion) the Worgen and Jarod Shadowsong were in place, I see the Ashenvale zone as post Wolfheart rather than pre Wolfheart.

Meaning the Horde had not been driven out of the forest at that point, or that the actions of Horde players in the zone take place prior to Woflheart. They take place after. This actually makes more sense as Zoram'gar outpost was destroyed by the Alliance during the course of Wolfheart, yet was rebuilt in the new orc style during Cataclysm implying the outpost was recaptured.

Is there any hard evidence of the Horde being driven out of Ashenvale completely or is Tyrande just blowing hot air?

I interpreted it as 'we won't try to take back Azshara if they leave Ashenvale alone' not 'we're giving them Azshara out of the kindness of our hearts.'

[The Madgod]

It's not just pride, it's pride in bloodshed. Nobody's saying that the orcs can't have pride in their heroes, nobody's even saying that they even have to change. Posters are just pointing out that if the orcs DON'T change and start teaching the bad along with the good, younger generations will probably keep repeating the same mistakes.

This really is it. This is the chief problem with the orcs. They didn't learn their lesson from the Old Horde and instead of looking at the long-term they looked to satiate their immediate cravings and short-term desires. It didn't help that Thrall really only half-assed his attempts at saying "THIS WAS BAD!" and at the same time over-glorified heroes from the first and second wars, leaving out the bad that they did and covering that up with "They ultimately did good so it's okay!"

The orcish race did not learn anything from history and thus were doomed to repeat it. This is probably one of the most cliched plot devices ever and I'm pretty sure that I wasn't the only one thinking this when war began to break loose.

[Combatbutler]

It's not just pride, it's pride in bloodshed. Nobody's saying that the orcs can't have pride in their heroes, nobody's even saying that they even have to change. Posters are just pointing out that if the orcs DON'T change and start teaching the bad along with the good, younger generations will probably keep repeating the same mistakes.

Bingo the Orcs can be proud of many things, but they choose to focus on the wrong things.