Casuals > Raiders, when it comes to content - misconception

[Glorious Leader]

Yeah and what about the people I try and help who do 30k DPS who tell me "Go kill yourself" and more colorful things? Like I said, every walk of life in this game is pure toxic, you just have a massive chip on your shoulder for some reason towards raiders, your posts are proof of it, I don't know if it's because you were told you aren't good enough or what but that chip is there and it is making you quite bigoted and hostile.

8/10 in those instances you can attribute the "go kill yourself" to how you phrased or stated the initial comment. If for instance you say "hey scrub here's how you get better" then your probably gonna get a sour response in return. The remaining 2 examples can be attributed to people either having a bad day and not feeling particularly nice (it does happen) or just trolls. In either case the content (in this case lfr) is not promoting it for those players. It's giving an avenue for jerks to jump in and be douches but I know of almost nobody who thinks their king shit because they completed lfr and should theirfor lord over everybody and tell them what's up. That is strictly or almost strictly a raider mentality.

Do I have a chip on my shoulder against raiders? No not really at least I don't think so seeing as how I was one only a short month or two ago. I've played this game for almost 8 years now on and off. In every raiding guild I've seen the same usual high school drama bullshit. People going livid in officer chat but all silent on vent when one or two guys aren't performing or the group is wiping. Posts in the officer forums out of sight from the general chat. Excluding people on purpose and heated arguments and more drama then I care to remember. It got better as the game went on because I could easily avoid it by simple not running with that group and I got lucky and found a group of people who are relatively free from that (although not completely). It's usual cliquish high school bullshit that these guilds engender. In fact their very nature is that of a clique. That's not to say every single individual member is an asshole but that the overall system promotes cliques. Guilds do have redeeming qualities though. It's just when they devolve into cliques it becomes BS. Like it's good to be social in this game. The game should require you to be more social and meet people and chit chat and so forth. But when that aspect of the game becomes exclusionary then it becomes a bad thing I think. It's like nationalism. Nationalism isn't inherently a bad thing in and of itself. It's just when it becomes we're all Americans except for this minority group here (gays, muslims, etc etc) then it becomes a bad thing.

[h1ko]

Yeah and what about the people I try and help who do 30k DPS who tell me "Go kill yourself" and more colorful things? Like I said, every walk of life in this game is pure toxic, you just have a massive chip on your shoulder for some reason towards raiders, your posts are proof of it, I don't know if it's because you were told you aren't good enough or what but that chip is there and it is making you quite bigoted and hostile.

In the end and I think everyone in all groups of WoW need to be understand is. Blizzard doesn't owe Raiders anything. Blizzard doesn't owe PvPers anything. Blizzard doesn't owe Casuals anything. But, we all matter to them in some way shape or form. That's why they are trying to create a balance, while it may not be the best. They are still trying and that has to be taken in account.

[Seefer]

8/10 in those instances you can attribute the "go kill yourself" to how you phrased or stated the initial comment. If for instance you say "hey scrub here's how you get better" then your probably gonna get a sour response in return. The remaining 2 examples can be attributed to people either having a bad day and not feeling particularly nice (it does happen) or just trolls. In either case the content (in this case lfr) is not promoting it for those players. It's giving an avenue for jerks to jump in and be douches but I know of almost nobody who thinks their king shit because they completed lfr and should theirfor lord over everybody and tell them what's up. That is strictly or almost strictly a raider mentality.

Do I have a chip on my shoulder against raiders? No not really at least I don't think so seeing as how I was one only a short month or two ago. I've played this game for almost 8 years now on and off. In every raiding guild I've seen the same usual high school drama bullshit. People going livid in officer chat but all silent on vent when one or two guys aren't performing or the group is wiping. Posts in the officer forums out of sight from the general chat. Excluding people on purpose and heated arguments and more drama then I care to remember. It got better as the game went on because I could easily avoid it by simple not running with that group and I got lucky and found a group of people who are relatively free from that (although not completely). It's usual cliquish high school bullshit that these guilds engender. In fact their very nature is that of a clique. That's not to say every single individual member is an asshole but that the overall system promotes cliques which certainly has SOME redeeming qualities. Like it's good to be social in this game. The game should require you to be more social and meet people and chit chat and so forth. But when that aspect of the game becomes exclusionary then it becomes a bad thing I think. It's like nationalism. Nationalism isn't inherently a bad thing in and of itself. It's just when it becomes we're all Americans except for this minority group here (gays, muslims, etc etc) then it becomes a bad thing.

Actually I am usually quite nice when I offer help, I even told someone to shut their mouth when they were harping on someone new, but usually each time I am met with some colorful remark or another..........again the problem is the people who think they are hardcore give the actual raiders a bad name, kind of like bads who use the casual moniker give casuals a bad name.

[Glorious Leader]

Actually I am usually quite nice when I offer help, I even told someone to shut their mouth when they were harping on someone new, but usually each time I am met with some colorful remark or another..........again the problem is the people who think they are hardcore give the actual raiders a bad name, kind of like bads who use the casual moniker give casuals a bad name.

Good I hope you are. I hope their are more folks like you. I just don't see that though. My experience has been like the one detailed in the other thread on this forum. Pointing out the guy who did 30k dps, calling him out as a scrub because you blew up the boss and he did squat and the group wiped (which almost NEVER has anything to do with his dps or yours) and then drama. Someone gets kicked. Angry customers all around.

[Seefer]

Good I hope you are. I hope their are more folks like you. I just don't see that though. My experience has been like the one detailed in the other thread on this forum. Pointing out the guy who did 30k dps, calling him out as a scrub because you blew up the boss and he did squat and the group wiped (which almost NEVER has anything to do with his dps or yours) and then drama. Someone gets kicked. Angry customers all around.

Again, those are wanna-be hardcores, because let's face it, in my personal opinion the ones who are the real hardcores are the ones who make the videos.........everyone else are just wanna-bes..........I am a gamer, I am good, I am not the best but I will help when needed but I won't tolerate being told "Go kill yourself <insert racist remark> <insert homophobic remark>" When what I simply say is "Have you tried using this talent or that glyph as I hear it is supposed to help boost your DPS" or something of the like.

[Mormolyce]

People who are assholes to others in LFR or dungeons or whatever are VERY RARELY serious raiders. In my experience the more seriously you raid the less toxic you are. In general, obviously there are some exceptions. But you don't last long in a dedicated raiding guild if you don't have decent social skills.

And no I'm not saying non-raiders are all terrible, I mean it goes from like 5% of the population being toxic to like 0.05% or whatever.

[smartazjb0y]

I'd say it's pretty even: people of both playstyles can be assholes. Assholes are assholes, whether they play 90 hours a week or half an hour a week. I've seen the top DPS be an asshole and the noob be an asshole. Getting into a pissing contest about which side has more assholes is a useless endeavor.

[judgementofantonidas]

Gotta love us vs them threads. They always seem to go well. When it comes down to it, for Blizzard, they really need anyone willing to sub at this point. So they'll continue making content for everyone to enjoy no matter how good or bad they are perceived to be at the game. I'm not saying they are completely desperate but when you lose half your income you had 7 or 8 months ago you wonder what went wrong and how much more time do I have before this ride ends.

We vs they threads are almost as good as "if my guild would not have imploded I would have cleared more" statements in those threads. lol

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People who are assholes to others in LFR or dungeons or whatever are VERY RARELY serious raiders. In my experience the more seriously you raid the less toxic you are. In general, obviously there are some exceptions. But you don't last long in a dedicated raiding guild if you don't have decent social skills.

And no I'm not saying non-raiders are all terrible, I mean it goes from like 5% of the population being toxic to like 0.05% or whatever.

did you ever think that those social skills may start to wear thin when you find yourself continually surrounded by stupidity? even ghandi could only take so much LFR.

[nekobaka]

You are only 5% of the population but it only takes one of you to really make life terrible for everyone else.

Goes both ways. In the end it takes a minority regardless of gameplay stance to ruin the enjoyment for the majority. When things are designed around the middle it takes just one person on the bottom to ruin it for the majority. The toxicity does not reside solely in raiders, it exists all over with a portion of them hiding behind the casual name and giving casuals a bad reputation.

did you ever think that those social skills may start to wear thin when you find yourself continually surrounded by stupidity? even ghandi could only take so much LFR.

As the DarkLagacy comic portrays, unicorns cant exist because they all eventually break. I have played from Classic and have spent many dungeons helping other players. After dealing with so many lazy dbags spitting in ones face, one tends to turn a blind eye and stop wasting ones personal time. Elitist raiders have not been particularly disruptive of my game play unlike those who think their 15 bucks entitles them to carries. Those are the players that can lead to groups crawling to a halt.

[judgementofantonidas]

As the DarkLagacy comic portrays, unicorns cant exist because they all eventually break.

yeah. that was a very well thought out comic

[-Psypher-]

even ghandi could only take so much LFR.

I'd give all of my considerable gold to be able to watch Ghandi livestream nonstop LFRs on Twitch. Oh, the betting that would be had!

[Grimble]

Any random group of WoW players is liable to contain 50% assholes. I don't really care, it's just how the internet works. The only difference is that nowadays you're not dependant upon a small exclusionary little community in order to see any gear/content above five-man level, and oh boy does it ever make some of you raiders mad that you're no longer the supreme arbiters of other peoples fun.

Because that one guy? The guy sitting around making shitposts about how Blizzard should remove LFR because it's making his epics feel less special? Fuck that guy. I am going to drink his tears forever, because the odds that he's ever going to get what he wants are zero-point-zero percent.

I love it when I see them talking to one another on here, desperately trying to convince each other that LFR is dead and about to be removed because they wiped in it a bunch of times in the first couple weeks of a new raid, like that's unusual. I love the desperation, the delusion, the grim clinging to hope that someday Blizzard will decide they hate money, fall on their sword, and announce that they're taking the game back to Burning Crusade and everyone who doesn't like it can quit.

It's my Ultima Online glory days all over again. Back when that game started, you used to be able to gank anyone anywhere, take every bit of their shit, and leave them naked in the woods. Obviously PVP got nerfed after a couple of years, and god did it make the hardcore killer types mad. You'd see them on the forums for years and years afterward, inventing ridiculously stupid imaginary reasons why their tiny group was totally vital to the game's success, trying to take credit when enough time passed and subscriptions eventually dropped, and hyping up every piece of shit game they hoped would cater to them.

Ten years later and most of those people were playing on illegal free servers, because they were a tiny little group with exorbitant demands that inconvenienced everyone else, and no real game that needed money wanted them.

Sound familiar? I am gonna sit here with my popcorn and watch history repeat itself.

[khalltusk]

We have to remember that LFR is the rule of the mob.

Guild raiding is the rule of the 1% (guild officers leaders etc)

Two vastly different raiding experiences. I am glad to say I enjoyed both sets. I do miss guild raiding if I am honest. If I had won the lottery I would certainly take it up again as I would not have this pesky thing called "work" fucking up my social time table .

Just last night in LFR we had AFK people being booted fast. We had a few harsh words (by we i mean the raid not I) exchanged between one of the healers and raid members sick of said healer ninja pulling sha. I always try to remain as civil as i can.

I gave out tactics before each fight and when our crappy offtank (really bad) kept dieing I checked logs to see what he died from. It was mostly rubbish damage he died from and a lot of it was he was not tanking and when he did tank healers were oom as random raid members were taking BOSS melee hits. I was relieved when he left after we killed the 3rd boss and went onto Sha.

Still I kept positive and talked with the raid members and I was not moaned at

[godded]

First of all, there are FAR, FAR, FAR, more hardcore raiders than you think, more than 1%, more like 10% at the least

I doubt there is 750000+ hardcore raiders in wow. Just go to wowprogress and take the top 4000 10man guilds and top 1500 25man guilds. Let's assume every 10man guild has 16 dedicated raiders and every 25man guild has 37 which is already very f***ing generous.

Now let's add that up.

(4000 x 16) + (1500 x 37) = 119500

and I strongly doubt that there are 4000 10man guild world wide you can consider hardcore raiding guilds, in fact the world 4000 10man right now has 4/14 normal which is less than my alt has done in pugs, and there are only 1296 25man guilds listed at all having killed a single 25man boss in SoO.
Considering wow still has a subscription base of I assume bordering 8 million, heck why not say 6 million.

119500 / 6000000 x 100 = 1.992%

and as said, those "hardcore" guilds i counted are mostly far from hardcore and I doubt every 10 man guild has 16 active raiders and neither does every 25man guild have 37 raiders, 12 players benched per night

The more realistic number for "hardcore" or rather heroic raiders, lies somewhere between 0,7-1% of the total subscription base, imo.

Face it, we hardcore raiders, are a VAST minority.

Edit: typo

[melodramocracy]

It's just the higher up you get in the content the less tolerance people will have for those who are not quite up to snuff.

Welcome to human nature?

[HeedmySpeed]

I doubt there is 750000+ hardcore raiders in wow. Just go to wowprogress and take the top 4000 10man guilds and top 1500 25man guilds. Let's assume every 10man guild has 16 dedicated raiders and every 25man guild has 37 which is already very f***ing generous.

Now let's add that up.

(4000 x 16) + (1500 x 37) = 119500

and I strongly doubt that there are 4000 10man guild world wide you can consider hardcore raiding guilds, in fact the world 4000 10man right now has 4/14 normal which is less than my alt has done in pugs, and there are only 1296 25man guilds listed at all having killed a single 25man boss in SoO.
Considering wow still has a subscription base of I assume bordering 8 million, heck why not say 6 million.

119500 / 6000000 x 100 = 1.992%

and as said, those "hardcore" guilds i counted are mostly far from hardcore and I doubt every 10 man guild has 16 active raiders and neither does every 25man guild have 37 raiders, 12 players benched per night

The more realistic number for "hardcore" or rather heroic raiders, lies somewhere between 0,7-1% of the total subscription base, imo.

Face it, we hardcore raiders, are a VAST minority.

That's never been disputed... why does this keep coming up?
Only a handfull of people get to play in the NFL but millions of people love to get caught in the hype.

Knowing that you can take a game hardcore/seriously is a very comforting notion and one that is easily misunderstood.
If this game had no "hardcore players" then that should be a red flag.
It means this game isn't worth playing that intensely, it just isn't that good.

The point is Hardcore players are an indicator of what's good. Not the best or fullproof indicator but it's very reliable.

What do you think the NFL is? A bunch of casual athletes?
I know it's immeasurable to see how far these players influence the hype and involvement from fans and viewers but I'm of the opinion that without an NFL and "hardcore" players it's a sign of something bad.

[judgementofantonidas]

I'd give all of my considerable gold to be able to watch Ghandi livestream nonstop LFRs on Twitch. Oh, the betting that would be had!

well, there are two outcomes.

I would win the bet, or Ghandi would rage quit.

[Grimble]

That's never been disputed... why does this keep coming up?
Only a handfull of people get to play in the NFL but millions of people love to get caught in the hype.

Knowing that you can take a game hardcore/seriously is a very comforting notion and one that is easily misunderstood.
If this game had no "hardcore players" then that should be a red flag.
It means this game isn't worth playing that intensely, it just isn't that good.

The point is Hardcore players are an indicator of what's good. Not the best or fullproof indicator but it's very reliable.

What do you think the NFL is? A bunch of casual athletes?
I know it's immeasurable to see how far these players influence the hype and involvement from fans and viewers but I'm of the opinion that without an NFL and "hardcore" players it's a sign of something bad.

Dude nobody outside of your tiny clique gives a fuck about you. I know it breaks your heart, but deal with it.

Infracted. There is no need of such word use, this doesn't contribute to the discussion, nor help with any points within this thread.

[Monteverdi]

Dude nobody outside of your tiny clique gives a fuck about you. I know it breaks your heart, but deal with it.

The thousands of players who not only follow the progression of the top guilds, but also could tell you many player names from these guild's rosters, seems to prove you wrong.

[khalltusk]

That's never been disputed... why does this keep coming up?
Only a handfull of people get to play in the NFL but millions of people love to get caught in the hype.

Knowing that you can take a game hardcore/seriously is a very comforting notion and one that is easily misunderstood.
If this game had no "hardcore players" then that should be a red flag.
It means this game isn't worth playing that intensely, it just isn't that good.

The point is Hardcore players are an indicator of what's good. Not the best or fullproof indicator but it's very reliable.

What do you think the NFL is? A bunch of casual athletes?
I know it's immeasurable to see how far these players influence the hype and involvement from fans and viewers but I'm of the opinion that without an NFL and "hardcore" players it's a sign of something bad.

It has been disputed look at the guy,
The only thing hardcore players are good for is testing the game. Thats it. The majority of truly casual players would not give a damn. Hardcore players put that extra effort in reporting bugs to the devs and testing the new content out. They are a great help in that respect. But other than that its not really an indicator of a great game. A game can be great with out being hard.

I personally enjoy difficult content when I get the time to do it.

The amount of fans in the game for these hard core guilds is probably far few than we think. Theres no exact numbers so its up in the air to how many.

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The thousands of players who not only follow the progression of the top guilds, but also could tell you many player names from these guild's rosters, seems to prove you wrong.

Hes probably not wrong it is most likely a tiny amount of players who follow it. There are millions more players out there.