Has the game become harder than TBC?

[miffy23]

From my prespective difficult raids are defined by amount of teamwork,preparation (raid composition,special items like nets and pvp trinkets incl.), longer crucial CDs which required proper timing. and amount of allowed mistakes during the fight.
What we have nowadays are RNG based fights,there teamwork is replaced by individual skills, and there even if you die you stil are rezz ready.
A boss fight can be infinite complex but if it is still forgiving, its not hard.

Heroic progress fights are forgiving? Uuuuh...have you ever tried one?

Grinding special items and class stacking do not make a fight actually hard, it is just time investment to actually DO the fight.

On heroic progress today, ALL Cds are crucial and require proper timing. Don't have your personals ready for when your TEAM decides to use them over a raid cooldown, because you have to actually properly cycle/align them to survive many different mechanics? Tough, you're dead. And even on 25 man you only have 3 rezzed, which severely limits your capacity to actually fail and still beat the boss. This is even tougher in 10 man, where u have exactly 1 rez and messing up is that much more painful.

In fact there is very little RNG in today's fights, and a whole crap ton of very noticable and straightforward, but hard to deal with movement mechanics, taking the other elements of a fight that go off simultaneously into account.

I'm sorry to say that like with the rest of the "defenders" of TBC, I highly doubt you have been raiding at a heroic level in MoP or even Cata. Because if you've experienced both on a regular basis you'd think quite differently.

[Deleted]

I agree on dungeons being harder and raids being easier, but "the world" back then is much easier then it is in MoP. Rares aren't faceroll anymore and require you to think. Quests are shorter, but not easier then they were in TBC (less grinding). One exception are the group quests however, but they are almost completely gone. Normal mobs aren't harder, they are actually easier, but we have A LOT more "oh shit buttons" than back then.

Also, Timeless isle is the "hardest" world content ever added in my opinion. Not counting world bosses of course.

[Raelbo]

The question that popped up immediately was did the game actually become harder after all these years? And that what I'd like to discuss.

This is not a simple black/white issue

Firstly difficulty is actually a subjective issue. Difficulty is a personal experience dependent on personal ability against the objective difficulty of the game. A highly experienced player might, for example, have a lot less difficulty beating "hard" content than an inexperienced player tackling "easy" content.

Secondly this game offers a massive spectrum of content at varying levels of difficulty, ranging from trivial to almost impossible.

Objectively the endgame content of MoP is harder than anything that has come before it, absolutely. On the other end of the spectrum, there is content offered with MoP that is easier than anything available with TBC. Furthermore, at the top end of the player spectrum, the top players of today are significantly better than they were 6/7 years ago, while at the lower end of the spectum, newbies are still newbies - it's just the gap to the top players which has grown.



Personally I find the game a lot easier today than I did back in TBC, in spite of the fact that a lot of the content is actually far more difficult. I am simply that much better at the game.

TL;DR:
Is the game objectively harder (at the top end content) than during TBC? Absolutely.
Do top end players experience a harder time with content? Not necessarily.

[miffy23]

This is not a simple black/white issue

Firstly difficulty is actually a subjective issue. Difficulty is a personal experience dependent on personal ability against the objective difficulty of the game. A highly experienced player might, for example, have a lot less difficulty beating "hard" content than an inexperienced player tackling "easy" content.

Secondly this game offers a massive spectrum of content at varying levels of difficulty, ranging from trivial to almost impossible.

Objectively the endgame content of MoP is harder than anything that has come before it, absolutely. On the other end of the spectrum, there is content offered with MoP that is easier than anything available with TBC. Furthermore, at the top end of the player spectrum, the top players of today are significantly better than they were 6/7 years ago, while at the lower end of the spectum, newbies are still newbies - it's just the gap to the top players which has grown.



Personally I find the game a lot easier today than I did back in TBC, in spite of the fact that a lot of the content is actually far more difficult. I am simply that much better at the game.

TL;DR:
Is the game objectively harder (at the top end content) than during TBC? Absolutely.
Do top end players experience a harder time with content? Not necessarily.

I think this we can all pretty much agree on, the actively raiding people that is. For most of us that have been raiding pretty regularly ever since Classic / TBC we've just improved so much that it doesn't seem as mindblowing anymore as it used to and we are accustomed to growing quickly with the new challenges.

As I said before, for people coming back after a long break the game has become drastically harder.

[h4rr0d]

I know this is not TBC, but even in WOTLK fights looked very simple compared to today's standards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOBO1bVRC-c
Sarth 3d was considered very difficult when it was current content and from that POV it looks almost like the huhuran vid someone posted in another thread recently

[Belisaurio]

It's not the game becoming harder, it's the player base going lazy.
Just analyse what wow is offering to you:

Leveling: BC/ Harder MoP/Easier
Equipment progression: BC/ Harder MoP/Easier
Dungeons: BC/Harder MoP/Easier
Other characters characteristics
(keys, attunements, factions, pet battles, scenarios, etc...) BC/ Harder MoP/Easier
Raids: BC/ 3/4 harder MoP/ 1/4 Harder

Other things are that people don't try to play harder, most of them just un-sub some months and return to finish their cape or just see the endgame. Try to figure how many people un-sub during BC and how many people un-sub in MoP.

[miffy23]

It's not the game becoming harder, it's the player base going lazy.
Just analyse what wow is offering to you:

Leveling: BC/ Harder MoP/Easier
Equipment progression: BC/ Harder MoP/Easier
Dungeons: BC/Harder MoP/Easier
Other characters characteristics
(keys, attunements, factions, pet battles, scenarios, etc...) BC/ Harder MoP/Easier
Raids: BC/ 3/4 harder MoP/ 1/4 Harder

Other things are that people don't try to play harder, most of them just un-sub some months and return to finish their cape or just see the endgame. Try to figure how many people un-sub during BC and how many people un-sub in MoP.

The problem is people keep attributing the word "hard", when it fact most of what you mentioned was just "time investment". And the majority of the players that enjoyed that kind of dedication to even get to the "hard" raid content left sometime after TBC or Wotlk because that changed. In my opinion, for the better.

Wait - I can have my cake and eat it too? I can have harder and harder fights that i don't have to spend weeks and weeks of dedicated, boring grinding to? Yet it's still challenging when i do it? Hell yes, and this is the right direction in my opinion. The dedicated few that think otherwise have already left the game, yet some still lurk on these boards and choose to rear their tired heads ever so often to yawn something about how TBC was so much "harder".

[Hottage]

Game mechanics are vastly more complex than they used to be, however the intelligence of those consuming the content (especially competitively) has grown at an even faster pace than the game mechanics.

Even those whom are not cutting-edge also have a lot more tools to assist them these days (class guides, mods, dungeon journal) which allow them to quickly adjust to, and consume the content.

Only players whom really have no interest in improving themselves (or have a real disability) should have any problems with current entry level end-game content. Take people with the "LFR mindset" back to classic and they would probably never get past the first tier of content. Not because it was insanely hard, but because there just wasn't all the tools to carry them.

[Struggle]

Are there seriously people that think MoP raiding is even remotely close to the difficulty of bosses like M'uru and Kil'jaeden when they were first ungated...?

[miffy23]

Are there seriously people that think MoP raiding is even remotely close to the difficulty of bosses like M'uru and Kil'jaeden when they were first ungated...?

Oh this will be good =)
Let me guess, another "former world top xx raider"? =) Probably in a top raiding guild right now too? Do tell!

Oh yeah, i see that Flex mode and LFR clearing really gives you perspective and empirical data to compare, doesn't it =)

[fengosa]

Are there seriously people that think MoP raiding is even remotely close to the difficulty of bosses like M'uru and Kil'jaeden when they were first ungated...?

H Garrosh took longer to kill than Mu'ru did

[Deleted]

Are there seriously people that think MoP raiding is even remotely close to the difficulty of bosses like M'uru and Kil'jaeden when they were first ungated...?

yes MoP is more difficult than those fights, but the raiders today are on average, older, better and more intelligent and most also have 1 or 2 expansions worth of raiding under them.

Those fights were harder simply due to gear requirements and the fact that there wasnt a whole crew of people instantly picking them apart and analysing every single bit of info.

Fights today are far more complex and challanging, but the players are also vastly better and have way more information availble to them.

[melodramocracy]

You'll never get a good answer, because everyone has their own viewpoint on what constitutes "hard" content.

Encounters are more complex now, undeniably. I'd say that across the board, the game is more forgiving than it had been though.

[Struggle]

Oh this will be good =)
Let me guess, another "former world top xx raider"? =) Probably in a top raiding guild right now too? Do tell!

Oh yeah, i see that Flex mode and LFR clearing really gives you perspective and empirical data to compare, doesn't it =)

What do I need that "perspective" for? Yea, I was a part of a pre-nerf M'uru kill at a respectable US positioning but that isn't the point. All you need to do is look at how long it took from release of the boss itself, be it K, Algalon, Arthas, or in this instance Garrosh versus the world first kill date. And guess what that data shows you?

Even the casuals are elitists now...ffs...

[-Psypher-]

The game is easier than it's ever been in terms of catch-up mechanisms for gearing alts, accessibility, and ease of play. The only thing comparable between TBC and Mists was the rep grind at the start of Mists. As far as the complexity of mechanics and whatnot - I've never considered mechanics to be entirely challenging in and of themselves, as there have always been mods that are just slightly less than auto-pilot for raiders.

[Struggle]

H Garrosh took longer to kill than Mu'ru did

not when you subtract a week of normal mode raiding, which in itself is a chance to see a watered down version of the fight early. There was no normal M'uru or KJ.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Game is obviously a lot harder today.

Inb4 back in TBC the game was "all mysterious" and you figured it all out yourself. Wrong.

- We had fullly functional DBM in TBC (this was created in pre-TBC).
- Theorycrafting was just as alive as it is today. Every class had their "best rotation", and finding this information wasn't any harder than it is now.
- We had detailed bossguides and ability listings all of the place, just like today.

I started playing WoW 2 weeks after TBC was released, so I can't really say this for sure, but: The only time the "nobody knew what they were doing back then, we had to figure it out for ourselves" was only true in the very beginning of pre-TBC. It was certainly NEVER the case in TBC.


Now, apart from raids getting much more complex, you must also remeber that the skill of the RAIDING population (not the general wow pop, but the raiders) have increased tremendously. And I'm not just talking about the very top players. While todays top players are much better than the top players from back in the day, the same applies to your average raider. What would we considered a "average-good raider" in TBC, would probably be considered shit and kicked from any guild that does HC raiding today.

What do I need that "perspective" for? Yea, I was a part of a pre-nerf M'uru kill at a respectable US positioning but that isn't the point. All you need to do is look at how long it took from release of the boss itself, be it K, Algalon, Arthas, or in this instance Garrosh versus the world first kill date. And guess what that data shows you?

It shows that todays top raiders, are much better players, and probably more important, spend muuuuch more time progressing than the top guilds did back in the day.

[Belisaurio]

Wait - I can have my cake and eat it too? I can have harder and harder fights that i don't have to spend weeks and weeks of dedicated, boring grinding to? Yet it's still challenging when i do it? Hell yes, and this is the right direction in my opinion.

That's, from my point of view, the bad direction to go. If grinds, leveling, professions become boring and grind-fest, then try to correct that. Don't remove them from endgame content. If you create something with a really high potential, just improve that, not re-move it to a second place were nobody care...

It's just my personal opinion, but remove or put in a second place it's not the solution.

From my point of view:
People want an expansion that you ding max-level If you talk with one NPC, then equip you pre-Raid gear without doing anything and just focus a really high-skill raid boss. And when you are bored, you've got other secondary things to do that don't affect anything.
Maybe I'm old, but I want more than this.

[Lumineus]

Are there seriously people that think MoP raiding is even remotely close to the difficulty of bosses like M'uru and Kil'jaeden when they were first ungated...?

Mu'ru is just Horridon with three fewer phases. It was harder because it required more tanks? #badraiddesign

[Varabently]

I think TBC was more gear-checky for a lot of fights. You could sort of avoid mechanics and just power through stuff. That wasn't always the case. Archimonde had a lot of mechanics and so did Vashj. Both were gimmick fights, but also required gear, similar to most MOP fights. I would like to see one or two check fights in every raid tier TBH. Maybe not quite Patchwerk style, but pretty close. Brutallus was a good check fight because you still had to swap tanks and stack in certain places, but you didn't have to dance around the room and avoid 4 different AoEs. I like those fights every now and then.