Holy in 5.4, still 0.6%

[Blergy]

My RL understands healing very well. Our Disc is doing amazing and is pretty much 20-30%+ ahead of everybody on pretty much every heroic fight, so another issue could also be; Would you ever bench a Disc with a normal healing setup this raid looking good on the meters (and doing damage, and have absorbs wich IS an advantage in many cases)? Probably not, no. Would you look at Overhealing done and think "wow, this Hpriest got potential, let's go with less healers next time"?

I totally agree. Unless you completely underheal the encounter (which runs the danger of death due to burst) or you're doing Malkorok which is just Tortos v2.0, I see no point to prioritize a class that is doing significantly less healing throughput.

As for the people who say meters aren't that important, it's nothing like DPS. You can scumbag meters as DPS by doing things wrong- killing adds when you shouldn't be. The only way to abuse healing meters is to heal things you shouldn't be healing- Gamon during Nazgrim, for example. But that is the only situation I can think of for this tier. In every other situation, your heals are doing a benefit to the raid. Some people may say that there are situations where a holy priests' healing arsenal would be more valuable than a disc, regardless of throughput. I'd like to hear what these situations are. For example, Tsulong holy > disc because of GS, and better single target healing.

[nobodysbaby]

If they did that, we'll be just looking at things like ground effects and instant smart heals and say "Maybe they should have some drawbacks", because whatever casted heals we have will get sniped too. If you think about it, HoTs aren't exactly innocent either; they are prone to being sniped and overheal, yet they continue ticking so they do snipe too. I don't think one button wonders like HTT, D-Hymn and Tranq are the best way of promoting good play either.

What's left after that isn't much though. You can't really have a balanced hps and no sniping in this current healing model, what we have can't be improved too much without really big changes. I mean, we're at a point where Blizzard had to change how abilities work because there were so many heals going on at the same time, they were causing input lag. How can you not get sniped...

If you read the last line I wrote; "I do feel it's wrong and healing needs adjustment imo, especially absorbs and smartheals did go nuts lately. IMO. " So, yes, smartheals got out of control. I also agree there are too much HoTs with EoL (and other) and I wrote it before; I hope and believe they will redesign that mastery in 6.0.

And Edit; The healing from lvl90 talents+hymn compared to our "working horses" is totally out of control to.

[Vicarious]

this thread:

people who dont like holy/prefer disc: "GLASS HALF EMPTY YOU MAY NOT SWAY MY PoV FOR LOVE NOR MONEY"

people who like holy/dont want to play disc because other people say so for some reason: "Who cares about healing meters just use your brain, nothing is best for every fight"

every spec in the game is good at something

[Dierdre]

Or, healing/absorbs should be redesigned so that absorbs wont always "come first" in healing done, making others look "worse than they are" etc.

Again:

If you're in it for the big numbers, go DPS; healing just doesn't work that way.

Do you really think we should educate every raider about how healing and absorbs works?

Yes. Definitely, yes.

And tell them "Holy (and others ofc) DO have powers, but it mostly goes to overhealing

If it mostly goes to overhealing then you're healing when there's no need to heal. That's bad zombie healing, or most likely an excessive healer setup.

Would like you to answer my first sentence to: "I want to ask you; Just how fun is it in the long run to get sniped, look "worse than you are" on meters

I did:

If you're in it for the big numbers, go DPS; healing just doesn't work that way.

Would you ever bench a Disc with a normal healing setup this raid looking good on the meters (and doing damage, and have absorbs wich IS an advantage in many cases)?

Probably not, no. Even less likely in 25-man. But again, it has nothing to do with disc being "better", it depends on the synergy with the rest of the healing setup and the mechanics of a specific encounter. E.g. I'd take holy over disc for Malkorok any day, even if the rest of my healers are rdruid, rshaman, mwmonk, etc.

Would you look at Overhealing done and think "wow, this Hpriest got potential, let's go with less healers next time"?

Yes, if we have lots of overhealing and our healers feel ok with their mana and throughput, we usually try with less healers next time.

- - - Updated - - -

"smartheals did go nuts lately. IMO. "

This last bit I agree with.

[nobodysbaby]

I'd take holy over disc for Malkorok any day, even if the rest of my healers are rdruid, rshaman, mwmonk, etc.

This makes me wonder if you did Malkorok hc? Cause you know the shieldbuff only reach so far? Disc have a good advantage here since they can "shield beyond the buff" and save low hp players, and keep the shields high, and ofc PW:B is quite powerful during the stacked AoE and extra dmg. So if you take only output healers in front of Disc, then perhaps you are looking too much at meters yourself?

If it mostly goes to overhealing then you're healing when there's no need to heal. That's bad zombie healing, or most likely an excessive healer setup.

And this makes me wonder if you ever check overhealing done from Holy Priests in general, or if you are aware just how much EoL, PoH, Sanc etc overheals atm, how Holy works this raid, sniping/absorbs or not.

If you're in it for the big numbers, go DPS; healing just doesn't work that way.

And this... just makes me /sigh.


It seems ppl forget Disc have dps and PW:B on top of everything aswell!

@Vicarius; "every spec in the game is good at something"; Yes, atm Holy are ok on a few bosses. Disc are great at them all.

[Vicarious]

not worth trying to argue with someone who isn't interested in anyone's opinion aside from their own

[nobodysbaby]

not worth trying to argue with someone who isn't interested in anyone's opinion aside from their own

"every spec in the game is good at something"; Ok, this forum is for discussion. If you can't take that simple statement from me, I advice you; don't write stuff like this

[Dierdre]

This makes me wonder if you did Malkorok hc? Cause you know the shieldbuff only reach so far?

AFAIK shieldbuff only reaches so far, and absorbs just add into the shield buff the same as healing does. Can't shield over the shield buff unless they hotfixed something along the way.

And this... just makes me /sigh.

And this just makes me think you ran out of sound arguments.
/win

Holy is a perfectly viable spec. If you overheal you might wanna check if holy is the best option according to the rest of your healing setup, if you can stop zombie healing and if your raid's healing needs are simply making you a needless plus one.

[Nosori]

I'm very neutral to this. I don't think Holy is bad at all when there really is damage to heal, but I agree with Holy's mastery being poorly designed, and that it should be changed to something that prevents the huge amounts of overhealing.

Now, as I said that I think Holy is fine, apart from the Mastery, I also agree that it's really not fun to look bad on the meters (even when in reality you can't judge how good someone is, just by looking at the meters) and make everyone think that it's all you're good for, when you know you could do much better if you'd have a chance.

So yeah, Holy is really viable at the moment, but a little redesign to a couple of things wouldn't hurt us either!

[nobodysbaby]

AFAIK shieldbuff only reaches so far, and absorbs just add into the shield buff the same as healing does. Can't shield over the shield buff unless they hotfixed something along the way.

Quoting Dracodraco in the mysteriously vanished Holy Paradox thread:

"Just going to comment on this part - you haven't tried malkorok heroic, don't diss it till you're there . Everything that makes Disc strong on a normal fight is present on Malkorok, maybe even more so, because the absorbs provided from Aegis and PW:S goes in and covers the "natural" absorbs of people. The fact that you have a set healthpool of about 600K that can only be replenished after 2:30 minutes of fighting makes absorbs just as strong, if not more so, than normal healing. The only reason Holy would break ahead is higher output, but even then, you see that the highest Holy priest is only about 10% ahead of the highest disc, as said."



I would be very surprised if Discs (and Paladins) absorbs would not get on top of the shieldbuff. It's been discussed a few times here on these forums before. If that's not the case, I trusted Draco and others here.

Also; I wish ppl discussing balance between Holy and Disc also took PW:B into consideration, wich does not show on meters at all but can be worth a whole lot of dmg absorbed. Same goes for the dmg Disc do really, it shouldn't be neglected talking about healer values. Disc is not far behind Holy even on Malkorok if you check the beloved raidbots.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm very neutral to this. I don't think Holy is bad at all when there really is damage to heal, but I agree with Holy's mastery being poorly designed, and that it should be changed to something that prevents the huge amounts of overhealing.

Now, as I said that I think Holy is fine, apart from the Mastery, I also agree that it's really not fun to look bad on the meters (even when in reality you can't judge how good someone is, just by looking at the meters) and make everyone think that it's all you're good for, when you know you could do much better if you'd have a chance.

So yeah, Holy is really viable at the moment, but a little redesign to a couple of things wouldn't hurt us either!

Yeah, I said several times to; the potential is there, we just don't get much of a chance to show it this raid, wich is a shame.

[Dierdre]

Also; I wish ppl discussing balance between Holy and Disc also took PW:B into consideration, wich does not show on meters at all but can be worth a whole lot of dmg absorbed.

And divine hymn can save a raid from wiping. Different toolkits, both powerful.

Same goes for the dmg Disc do really, it shouldn't be neglected talking about healer values.

I agree, atonement doesn't have the throughput tradeoff fistweaving has for instance. But if you are in fact overhealing a lot, and if you know your fights, you can very well go into chastise which isn't negligible either (our priest did this on various ToT fights) and then switch back when healing is actually needed. It takes more planning and knowledge of the fights, but it's feasible.

Disc is not far behind Holy even on Malkorok if you check the beloved raidbots.

From raidbots:
"As usual, this score is not the end-all, be-all measure of anything. It's merely an interesting collection of data trying to compress a whole lot of data into a single comparable value."

[nobodysbaby]

You don't get my point Dierdre PW:B=don't show on mtrs, DH does. Both save lifes, yes ofc, but only 1 is "visible". It wasn't a question of "what is more powerful".

And about overhealing, you need to do some research before you assume I overheal more than anyone, cause I don't think I do actually. I reforged out of spirit, currently 12,5k, so no, I don't "zombie heal", I could never afford that (and I would prolly get my butt kicked if I played like a zombie in this guild aswell). So, go brows logs and do some research about overhealing from different classes, Holy/Disc in particular in this case! And yes, they are the "proof" Holy has got the potential, but as I said above, don't have much of a chance to show it this raid, IMO cause of mechanics and dmg patterns of the fights, random dmg that dont really fit our toolbox, PoH wont be of full use+Chakra restricted ST heals, and tbh - lack of heavy ongoing AoE (usually bursty, not ongoing), wich i think is unfortunate. Even if we kill bosses and I do my job well, it's nice to know you contribute, and one way to check are... sadly.. meters.

It's simply not so Holy friendly as previous tiers was for Holy mechanics.

I think raidbots are pretty accurate when it comes to comparing how we are doing on... meters, absolutly.

[Dierdre]

So, go brows logs and do some research about overhealing from different classes, Holy/Disc in particular in this case!

Ok, let's do that. Now check overhealing logs for rdruids or rshaman. Holy and resto will ALWAYS overheal more than disc, that doesn't make them worse, they just have different mechanics, and that's precisely the reason HPS logs are absolute nonsense without knowledge of what's actually going on for each fight.

[nobodysbaby]

Ok, let's do that. Now check overhealing logs for rdruids or rshaman. Holy and resto will ALWAYS overheal more than disc, that doesn't make them worse, they just have different mechanics, and that's precisely the reason HPS logs are absolute nonsense without knowledge of what's actually going on for each fight.

Yeah, I check every fight and I almost always win... overhealing;P And I will say I am a good Holy Priest anyway! Ofc I check overhealing for other Holy Priests to, and it's not surprisingly very high. Druids and Shamans got a lot of smartheals going so don't assume based on old raids, that they overheal as much as they used to. As I said, smartheals>PoH and also Chakra shit<no Chakra shit, also CoH is not as strong as it used to be. So the question is, is Holy so great then if they don't have the right tools for this raid, you can also ask yourself that? Holys biggest strength was always heavy ongoing dmg, but there aren't many fights like that and we didn't get any changes while other classes did.

[DPA]

"every spec in the game is good at something"; Ok, this forum is for discussion. If you can't take that simple statement from me, I advice you; don't write stuff like this

But... Seriously, he's right. You're not discussing, you're diminishing everyone who does not share your idea and point of view.
You're not discussing, you're trying to brainwash people with false information, bad data collection and heavy generalizations.

[nobodysbaby]

Yeah, I check every fight and I almost always win... overhealing;P And I will say I am a good Holy Priest anyway! Ofc I check overhealing for other Holy Priests to, and it's not surprisingly very high. Druids and Shamans got a lot of smartheals going so don't assume based on old raids, that they overheal as much as they used to. As I said, smartheals>PoH and also Chakra shit<no Chakra shit, also CoH is not as strong as it used to be. So the question is, is Holy so great then if they don't have the right tools for this raid, you can also ask yourself that? Holys biggest strength was always heavy ongoing dmg, but there aren't many fights like that and we didn't get any changes while other classes did.

Edit; I think I made my PoV very clear anyhew And now, tbh, I am waiting for 6.0 and new raids and hopefully overhauled Chakra, a more balanced toolkit where 90talents dont make up most of your healing and perhaps also a Mastery change.

- - - Updated - - -

But... Seriously, he's right. You're not discussing, you're diminishing everyone who does not share your idea and point of view.
You're not discussing, you're trying to brainwash people with false information, bad data collection and heavy generalizations.

Oh, no... I am against brainwashing. I never stop anyone from explaining why if they have an oppinion! If someone says "every specc is good at something" I have to smile a little tho. I'm sry if my wordings have been too strong somehow.

Oh, and I got curious; where is this "false information, bad data collection" btw?

[Ralph2580]

Do you know what kind of healer paragon used on the world first garrosh kill on 10 man hc?
They solo healed it, but what class and what specialization do you think it was?

They healed it with a Holy Priest.

[kenn9530]

holy is actually very good, the problem is most guilds will overheal fights or the classes with absorbs will shine better due to how absorbs work, in terms of pure output a holy priest is very high to the top. In a 10 man guild most guilds will 3 heal fights for safety and depending on setup it may be even or one class may just shine better at padding meters, 2 healing a fight shows a much more accurate projection of how a healer performs due to much less potential for overhealing and such, i would say all healers in equal gear and skill can perform to somewhat similar levels.

Meters can be used as a guideline but to effectively judge performance the use of world of logs should be used and analysed correctly.

[nobodysbaby]

They healed it with a Holy Priest.

Mmmmm... solohealing.... *droool*

[DPA]

Following this thread is like following the early Soviet Union indoctrination.