Holy in 5.4, still 0.6%

[blackhammer99]

this thread:

people

Hey vic, was gonna post on your behalf but glad you found your way here first.
In 25 man heroic progression from my experience, any healing spec can excel at any fight. Some specs are predisposed to the success, but a competent player who understand how healing works now can easily help their raid survive and succeed in many ways.

Don't forget, healing (HPS) is not Damage (DPS.)
Your "numbers" may not always be the most indicative of success, as there is a limited amount of healing that needs to be done.

If you find yourself under preforming and are confident it isn't your skill, then it could be your raid is outgearing the fight, or your healing comp would due with a few changes.
Just because absorbs get their ticket punched first doesn't mean Holy is less viable.

[Blergy]

People are throwing around the word "viable" way too much. Does viable mean competitive? If so, looking at HPS it absolutely is not, apart from a few fights. Is it optimal? No, apart from one fight. So you have to believe that holy has some situational benefit over disc on an encounter, ignoring HPS completely.

I'd still like to hear why people think holy brings more tools to the table than disc for specific encounters. Holy is terrible at healing after a burst of raid damage (calamity, swelling pride, falling ash, warsong, etc) because it is a huge chunk of damage followed by a recovery period. Apart from divine hymn and a DI'd PoM, holy priests have no "burst" healing- the raid will/should be healed back up before the holy priest can even cast 2 PoH's. Holy is terrible at healing randomly targeted damage (IJ lasers, KDS iron prison) apart from the smart CoH which heals for very little.

Holy's throughput is great only for sustained damage fights. So Norushen and Malkorok, and possibly IJ siege phase, apart from the fact that holy's mobility is terrible. There are no Tsulong-type fights where guardian spirit excels over pain suppression. So why is holy "viable" over disc? Would you seriously underheal an encounter and risk someone dying, just because your holy priest says "hold on guys, I'm great at healing you back to ful... oh darn something killed you?" People only did that on heroic Norushen due to the severe berserk timer. Holy may have the highest potential throughput of all healer classes, but it is only for a very specific situation that is not really found this tier.

[kenn9530]

People are throwing around the word "viable" way too much. Does viable mean competitive? If so, looking at HPS it absolutely is not, apart from a few fights. Is it optimal? No, apart from one fight. So you have to believe that holy has some situational benefit over disc on an encounter, ignoring HPS completely.

I'd still like to hear why people think holy brings more tools to the table than disc for specific encounters. Holy is terrible at healing after a burst of raid damage (calamity, swelling pride, falling ash, warsong, etc) because it is a huge chunk of damage followed by a recovery period. Apart from divine hymn and a DI'd PoM, holy priests have no "burst" healing- the raid will/should be healed back up before the holy priest can even cast 2 PoH's. Holy is terrible at healing randomly targeted damage (IJ lasers, KDS iron prison) apart from the smart CoH which heals for very little.

Holy's throughput is great only for sustained damage fights. So Norushen and Malkorok, and possibly IJ siege phase, apart from the fact that holy's mobility is terrible. There are no Tsulong-type fights where guardian spirit excels over pain suppression. So why is holy "viable" over disc? Would you seriously underheal an encounter and risk someone dying, just because your holy priest says "hold on guys, I'm great at healing you back to ful... oh darn something killed you?" People only did that on heroic Norushen due to the severe berserk timer. Holy may have the highest potential throughput of all healer classes, but it is only for a very specific situation that is not really found this tier.

have you tried healing the way the paragon priest heals, he mainly uses yellow chakra with a high haste build, this yields amazing mobility in healing through instant heals and renew, combine this with cascade which refreshes renew on the the raid, most holy priests just sit in blue thinking the aoe chakra is the best at aoe healing when in fact it isnt, the main reason for most priests choosing disc is its easy, adds extra dmg to the raid and its amazing for sniping heals.

the paragon priest heals 9 out of 14 bosses as holy, you also have to be very skilled to perform well so thats another reason to choose disc.

[Deleted]

I strongly disagree with holy priests having bad mobility. I think we have quite a good mobility. Renew is a healing spell that does matter and should be used. It really doesnt take much mana and the healing potential is significant. Combine this with a good amount of haste and you have a running n gunning healing machine. Combine renew with the other instant casts we have, of which we have in yellow chakra at least 4 others. After you've cast all these, how often do you still need to move? I'm sure that there are some fights where you run all the damn time, but I doubt any class can improve much. I dont play other classes so maybe I'm off my rocker.


Binding heal glyph and cascade refreshes are great, but cascade has quite a long cooldown so you still need to cast heals or recast renews most of the time. In the way Jhazrun heals in holy, thats where the mobility really starts to show. With renew blanketing you are always on top of the game and you are not easily taken aback by sudden incoming damage.

Of course I'm just theorizing here, since I these days dont get to attend progress content. You dont feel any healing tactic differences in lfr, flex or even normal modes. It's all faceroll no matter how you play.

[nobodysbaby]

Renew is pretty terrible in 25m where you certainly wont go Haste+Serenity (FU Chakra). So for Holy to be able to heal a raid properly, we need to be able to hardcast PoH, so perhaps mobility can be good in 10's but it isn't so much in 25's. Even Shaman got better mobility IMO^^ Besides CoH (wich nowadays is pretty weak) and PoM's, we then need to rely on our lvl90 talents or very weak Renews to raidheal on the move.

Let's take a look at average HPS for Juggernaut - one of the most moving intense fights? http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_Jugg...00000000111111

I think ppl just adjust slow to how healing have developed. It used to be true we had good mobility when Renew & CoH actually were very good spells in ICC for example

[Deleted]

I also have no 25man experience. Obviously serenity wont work there in the first place. LFR really doesnt count.

[Isheria]

Well holy has low representation because not only it has no utility, the skillcap is also much higher than discipline in order to put out equal healing. Here's how you play discipline these days:

1) Target boss, press atonement rotation
2) Press lvl 90 talent on cd with archangel up even if it's full overheal none cares anyway you just need divine aegis procs anyway because 60% max hp cap absorbs are cool especially when completely passive.
3) Maybe use spirit shell and shields if you cba

Here's the result of me doing what i just described on a heroic paragons kill: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e=1813#Isheria and that's on holy reforged gear for discipline. As you can see over 50% of my healing comes from passive abilities and smart heals which leads us to my point which is that even the worst of the worst players can play discipline and perform well so obviously it has a much higher representation and on top of that it has much needed utility. Maybe if blizzard didn't give all the goodies to one spec while making it a joke to play as well in the process you would have seen a more equal representation between to both specs but that ain't the case unfortunately.

[Deleted]

I do believe holy is too difficult to play. Majority reason being the pointless chakra system that just needs to go. Inner Fire/Inner Will midfight swapping should also go away and die, though thats not that big of a deal compared to chakra.

[Blergy]

Yeah, I was referring to 25m specifically. I know for 10m that renew is a thing, but it isn't for 25m.

And yes, the lvl 90 talents need a serious nerf. Taking diminishing returns off just made them ridiculous. The main reason divine aegis is doing 50% of disc healing is because of lvl 90 talents. Disc isn't casting PoH outside of spirit shell, it isn't casting any single target heal apart from penance and atonement... so yeah.

[tiporispit]

Meters are for toolbags. If the boss goes down... gg. If he doesn't, the meters still don't mean a damn thing. You know that guy in last place? He may have saved the tank 4 or 5 times while everyone else was meter jizzing raid damage. He may have hit that crucial dispel, while the meter whores fought for #1. Healing meters are absolutely silly nonsense, and no one even talked about them until the second expansion, long after every previous boss had been downed without parsing heals. This is the very definition of the so-called "Wrath baby".

[Deleted]

It doesn't matter that every approach to the role of healing should be somewhat equal and slightly specific for different situations? Strange.

[Vicarious]

They purposely balance holy knowing that it will overheal a lot and make the heals waaaaaaaaaay over the top with that in mind and especially with the 2 set from this tier the penalty of healing outside of chakra stance is lessened by that fact.

Should the cd be so prohibitive while the stance specific abilities so lackluster? Probably not but that can be changed and the over compensation can be toned back at that time.

I don't care if its hard to play or overcomplicated if it works and its steadily gotten better and better. The reality is that they know they are going to change chakra big time for 6.0 and the 2 set for holy is going to become baseline(they always test changes out like this). It's funny to me that people cry foul on a change that doesn't lower echo of light healing at all if people are not at full, but because it might in some situations be too slow now to snipe all pulsing damage (yet could snipe better if it happens to be at a more convenient time when it ticks) and greggy street actually responds by buffing it because again its something that has always been an over the top compensation and whats another 4% if it makes people happy.

Either way when the shit hits the fan and you are down healers(progression) holy has both the sustained throughput, huge single target nuke heals(2 set), and efficiency to hang on and keep a whole 25 man alive. It is a powerful weapon when in the right hands and you just can't say the same of disc, when things go wrong and you are fighting to top people up as disc its a nightmare, they do an amazing job at smoothing burst damage and being that planned out utility that keeps things clean when all goes according to plan. There's nothing wrong with disc and it is as powerful as holy in every regard within margin of error, it is just different. Every raid would do well to have one of each assuming those players are good with holy or disc spec respectively and aren't half-assing it. Disc has just moved further away from the way it once was years ago to the point where, after many well needed changes, holy fits my playstyle more now. I want to feel like I can heal anything without relying on anyone, I hated the feeling of slowly watching people die because I was one of two healers left and I just couldn't do anything more than I was knowing that as holy we would have won. If its going to be down to the wire I'm going to be the one that saves the raid, careful planning and preventing wipes before they happen is no longer for me. Not everyone has to think this way but it isn't wrong either, and arbitrarily taken representation statistics from a pool of wild variance and no background information to explain the reason for it means absolutely nothing to me. If someone told me I was the only person in the world playing holy in heroic SoO I wouldn't do anything differently, I've always done things the way that makes sense to me and tested everything myself no matter what anyone else said or did.

[nobodysbaby]

@Isheria: I don't agree Holy is harder to play than Disc. I do however think they "nerfed" Disc the wrong way; SS is a cool thing and when it doesn't really matter if you use it or keep Atonment spam - then it's a shame.

Crit is too valuable for Disc, no question. Besides more dps, the convertion of crits into shields means almost no overhealing at all, wich can't exactly be said about any other healer. It also means too much shielding for a class to be healthy in a "healing" environment imo. The biggest flaw with Disc and what makes it SO f-ing mindless and boring is while Atonment "healing" (I don't want to call it real healing tbh) you don't even have to make the choice of what targets to heal, the game automatically heals the most injured player in the raid, wich is pretty screwed up, and Atonment is a very, very big part of Disc play atm. Much too big part.

[KaPe]

It's kinda funny how it worked out. Holy got some pretty decent buffs coming into this patch - SoL has been improved, Serendipity effect was doubled, 2pc bonus is pretty powerful.

And yet Disc is still superior is most cases, thanks to absurd synergy between crit, buffed level 90 talents and their own 2pc bonus. ~60% uptime on 10% extra crit works very well with all of them and gives a nice cushion. And even on Malkorok, having a third health bar through layer of shields/aegis is better than pure hps - other specs can bring that, whereas no one else has such huge absorbs.

Last but not least - Atonement is the perfect "filler" spell, something which Holy *really* lacks. What is there to use, Heal? Longer cast than smite, dumb heal that's only there to proc SoL, doesn't give you stacks of important healing buff and doesn't do damage. I guess Renew spam is a thing in 10s, but in 25...

Well, either way, the one spec that really needs rework isn't Holy - outside of Chakra, obviously. Blizzard really needs to work on Disc. Divine Aegis is absurd right now - and sure, lowering crit levels in new expansion will deal with this, but really... absorbs are getting out of hand.

[Noradin]

I agree that 'Heal' is too slow...

[Powell]

Don't compare disc to holy.
They're completely different in healing mechanics.

Disc is just so unique and has synergy with nearly any and every raid/healer setup.
Holy is a generic healer in terms of mechanics. Ones that other healers easily fullfil much more easily, more efficiently and with much better mechanics (Chakra is a burden).

Holy being able to solo Heroic Garrosh is not an excuse to say they're fine.
If you watch the video, the entire fight, he didn't change his Chakra once. Hows that a good class mechanic?

[nobodysbaby]

I could see Atonment being changed to something like Beacon; you get to choose wich target you heal by dpsing. That would make much more sense than "I don't need to make any decissions, just spam the boss and the game does the rest".

*ducks for the Disc rage*

[laplacedemon]

As you can see over 50% of my healing comes from passive abilities and smart heals which leads us to my point which is that even the worst of the worst players can play discipline and perform well so obviously it has a much higher representation and on top of that it has much needed utility. Maybe if blizzard didn't give all the goodies to one spec while making it a joke to play as well in the process you would have seen a more equal representation between to both specs but that ain't the case unfortunately.

I really don't get how holy in 25s is any harder than disc. A huge portion of holy's heals are smart or passive too. EoL, cloak, PoM, CoH, D-Hymn, Lightwell... Just adding those from your logs, you have 62.9% on Protectors, 55.5% on Norushen, 60.1% on Sha, 55.6% on Galakras, 65.3% on Juggernaut, 72.3% on Nazgrim, 64.4% on Spoils and 49.3% on Thok from those passive effects or smart heals.

I sincerely doubt not being able to use t90 talents and PoH preemptively makes a spec rocket science. That would be like saying "Knowing when to use SS and shields is hard", it's just not... In hindsight, guaranteed DA from PoH disc was actually harder to play than current disc though.

Disc is just so unique and has synergy with nearly any and every raid/healer setup.
Holy is a generic healer in terms of mechanics. Ones that other healers easily fullfil much more easily, more efficiently and with much better mechanics (Chakra is a burden).

Holy being able to solo Heroic Garrosh is not an excuse to say they're fine.
If you watch the video, the entire fight, he didn't change his Chakra once. Hows that a good class mechanic?

Except he does... to red though, not blue.

But you're contradicting yourself. If holy single target chakra is good enough to heal most of the damage in 10s (especially coupled with 2p and Cascade borderline brokenly refreshing Renews), it can't be a burden at the same time, can it?

I could see Atonment being changed to something like Beacon; you get to choose wich target you heal by dpsing. That would make much more sense than "I don't need to make any decissions, just spam the boss and the game does the rest".

*ducks for the Disc rage*

I always love your suggestions Drena, although I liked your idea of removing DA from lvl90 talents more than this. More outrageous is always more fun, I'd say let's just delete disc and be done with it...

[Kalmah]

I could see Atonment being changed to something like Beacon; you get to choose wich target you heal by dpsing. That would make much more sense than "I don't need to make any decissions, just spam the boss and the game does the rest".

*ducks for the Disc rage*

The problem isn't so much that atonement is that good, it's that there's no alternative outside of cooldowns. Basically I think that removing blanket DA from PoH was a mistake. There was already a discussion back then that it removed decision making from the spec and it's obvious now.

If you can't do atonement healing, what are you casting when SS and lvl90 are on cooldown?

Disc is braindead simple at this point and it needs way bigger changes than just tweaking atonement or whatever.

[nobodysbaby]

Holy have key spells that doesnt benefit from our Mastery, like Renew, Sanc & LW. I think thats wrong.

Yes, I doubt the lvl 90 talents was meant to be used for powerfull shieldblanketing (and this is mostly due to the fact devs werent able to implement the target cap) so Aegis should be removed as a hotfix. It would also make secondary stats for Disc much more balanced.

After all hate I experienced against Chakra I think devs should also hotfix so we have only Dps and Heal Chakras asap. Waiting until 6.0 seems very arrogant to me, we already waited too long.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem isn't so much that atonement is that good, it's that there's no alternative outside of cooldowns. Basically I think that removing blanket DA from PoH was a mistake. There was already a discussion back then that it removed decision making from the spec and it's obvious now.

If you can't do atonement healing, what are you casting when SS and lvl90 are on cooldown?

Disc is braindead simple at this point and it needs way bigger changes than just tweaking atonement or whatever.

I heard this a lot! Doesnt Disc have regular healing spells just like every other healers? Yes, I am quite sure they do... lol:-D