My guilds proposing a new loot distribution system that's causing alot of controversy

[Mortal Strike]

I've still not read any reason why /roll or EPGP aren't perfectly good systems. Loot council requires trust in whoever is on council and requires the loot council to genuinely know WTF they're talking about. In top end heroic guilds this is probably the case but in most guilds it's probably not the case that the council will really be that up on the various specs and classes.

/roll is a fine system for casual guilds that don't really care who gets what, but if the guild wants to do progression seriously, there's too much risk that important items go to people who aren't going to do a whole lot with it.

EPGP is a great system, as it generally rewards people who are contributing, but again, someone who isn't that good may just save up EP.

The best system for a progression guild is and always be loot council. However, it is completely dependent on having non-biased, trustworthy council members. If your guild's officers can be trusted and are rational, smart people, this system is the best. In a guild the GM wants to gear up the girl trying to get in her pants, however, it's not going to work so well.

TL;DR - Every loot system is based on the presumption that nobody can be trusted, except for loot council. If you do trust them, loot council is the best.

[Deleted]

in our 10man we usually just call out if its an upgrade, then quickly compare what everyone has and incase of token if some can make 2p/4p.
based on that we usually let the one have who gets the biggest upgrade from it. and if a certain person wins a few things in a row we let others also take some even if its less of an upgrade too keep it fairly shared and decently near each other in ilvls.

[Xsy]

Loot systems are stupid. Do a roll, the highest roll wins the item. If someone gets a great set bonus or its a huge upgrade then the loot winner trades it away. You are suppose to be a team.

[Pengalor]

OP, that system is wayyyy overcomplicated. I'm an officer of my guild and the way we decided to do loot was if you need it then roll for it, nice a simple. We have a couple of exceptions like tier (to prioritize the best set bonuses which we worked out the week before the tier started) and 2h weapons/1h+OHs (in other words, if you already have a normal mode staff from the raid then if a 1h or OH drops then it's going to someone else until everyone is caught up).

[maxalyss]

People should have to earn their gear. I only stay in guilds that use dkp type systems.

If I show up every week and contribute, waiting for a piece to drop why should I have to give that upgrade to some guy that shows up when he feels like it?

Dkp is like money to buy gear, like in real life if you don't show up to work you don't get money, if you don't show up to Raid you don't get gear. Sounds good to me.

[Kulestu]

Loot's a means to an end and you're not even doing heroic content yet. This is completely unnecessary, especially for a normal guild. Just do loot council and don't be corrupt pricks.

[Varabently]

For clarification, I'm an officer, and I personally agree very much so with this system, but I'm weary of the fact that some other raiders think they're being cheated.

_________________

Essentially, loot goes to whomever considers the item the largest upgrade (All player gear is treated as being not upgraded yet).

Players who have to forfeit the loot (due to it not being as much an upgrade) receive priority rating equal to half (rounded down) the ilvl difference between their own gear (treated as non upgraded) and the piece that was given to a different player.

Players can spend priority rating to artificially increase the ilvl gap between their current gear and dropped loot to attain gear.

Example:

Boss 1:
Player 1 has an ilvl 528 0/2 Sword, Player 2 has a 510 2/2 (Treated as 502). A 553 weapon drops and is given to Player 2. Player 1 receives 12 priority rating. ( (553-528) / 2 = 12.5)

Boss 2:
Player 1 has an ilvl 540 helm, Player 2 has a 528 helm. A 553 helm drops and is given to Player 2. Player 1 gains 6 priority rating for a total of 18

Boss 3:
Player 1 has an ilvl 540 chest, Player 2 has a 528 chest. A 559 warforged chest drops. Whilst Player 2 has a 31 ilvl difference and Player 1 has a 19 ilvl difference, Player 1 spends 13 of his 18 rating to artifically attain a 32 ilvl difference.

Player 1 receives the warforged chest and now sits at 5 priority rating.

__________________

This system was chosen for two reasons:

* Making sure progression remains the largest priority for the guild by ensuring upgrades make the largest possible difference
* The Priority Rating system helps counteract under geared/newer players getting ALL the loot, this rewards better players by still giving them a chance to attain loot

The biggest complaints here are:

* Better players are being rewarded the least
* BiS gear is being ignored entirely

My GM feels that prioritising better players to get gear means that the drops are making smaller differences thus slowing down progression. BiS is being ignored because we plan on doing Heroic content eventually which means BiS normal gear will just be upgraded anyway.

I'd like to know everyone's opinion here. We're at the point where we're considering telling those players to just leave if they dislike it. I feel players should put progression above their own gear, but I dont want to tell people this if the consensus is that its wrong.

If there is an automated system to do this, I am on board. It makes sense to get the largest upgrades out there first, making the biggest difference, but the logistical headache of manually doing this and maintaining it accurately seems to render it undesirable.

Honestly, need mainspec, greed offspec/de seems like the fairest way. Noone can complain about favoritism or anything and it will most likely yield a very similar result to yours. ALSO, if people aren't dicks and pay attention to their peers (with whom they share loot), surely they would pass on an item if they knew it was a bigger upgrade to someone else. and even if they don't, that peer now has a bigger chance of getting it next time.

There's a lot of complicated loot systems out there (suicide kings, EPGP, loot council, etc), but in the end, it's just loot. Just leave it on group loot and have fun. If someone rolls by accident on an item you can trade it. If they roll on purpose, they are a ninja and get an immediate gkick.

[maxalyss]

If there is an automated system to do this, I am on board. It makes sense to get the largest upgrades out there first, making the biggest difference, but the logistical headache of manually doing this and maintaining it accurately seems to render it undesirable.

Honestly, need mainspec, greed offspec/de seems like the fairest way. Noone can complain about favoritism or anything and it will most likely yield a very similar result to yours. ALSO, if people aren't dicks and pay attention to their peers (with whom they share loot), surely they would pass on an item if they knew it was a bigger upgrade to someone else. and even if they don't, that peer now has a bigger chance of getting it next time.

There's a lot of complicated loot systems out there (suicide kings, EPGP, loot council, etc), but in the end, it's just loot. Just leave it on group loot and have fun. If someone rolls by accident on an item you can trade it. If they roll on purpose, they are a ninja and get an immediate gkick.

So basically you are saying that if you raided 3 days a week and showed up every week waiting for a trinket or weapon to drop, it is ok for me to join your guild and win that from you on the first day or a player that raids maybe one time every 2 weeks to take it?

[Scubascythe]

Your raid team needs to learn to share.

This if it's 10's.

Was in a guild that used DKP for 25's and switched to 10's. Officer and main raider (friends) wanted to maintain DKP for 10's, since they abused it and would pass on upgrades while taking the nice stuff (weaps, trinkets, etc).

One time had to pug and the pug won the roll for a weap, the main raider (who wanted DKP) made up some excuse during trash and logged off for the night.

Kicked him and his friend out next week. This was back in Cata T11 after switching down from ICC 25's.

All the 10's I've been in now just use rolls. Sometimes another will pass if it's a huge upgrade for someone else.

Your loot system is just as easy to game. It encourages people to ignore flex/lfr and keep whatever low ilvl item they have so when the normal version drops they get the highest priority (plus passing on other upgrades to keep accumulating some silly priority points).

[jason1975]

For clarification, I'm an officer, and I personally agree very much so with this system, but I'm weary of the fact that some other raiders think they're being cheated.

_________________

Essentially, loot goes to whomever considers the item the largest upgrade (All player gear is treated as being not upgraded yet).
. . . .

I'd like to know everyone's opinion here. We're at the point where we're considering telling those players to just leave if they dislike it. I feel players should put progression above their own gear, but I dont want to tell people this if the consensus is that its wrong.

The problem is you're over thinking the loot system, and it's too difficult to understand.

I'm an engineer by training, and I'll tell you that my mind about melted about half way through this.

If you want to do a loot council, then do a loot council. RC Loot Council is what my guild uses and it's pretty awesome. Frankly /roll MS > OS with priority given to the person who has won the least loot that night, is probably the best distribution method if your raid has stable attendance.

TLDR: Making loot systems like rocket science is always going to piss off people. Make it simple don't waste your time explaining your overcomplicated system.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically you are saying that if you raided 3 days a week and showed up every week waiting for a trinket or weapon to drop, it is ok for me to join your guild and win that from you on the first day or a player that raids maybe one time every 2 weeks to take it?

Yes it is, if that's the guild policy. The question is, "does the guild want that to be its policy?" Every guild needs to determine these things for themselves. There is no one size fits all answer.

In our guild, there is an attendance requirement for loot (again, we use a loot council that takes that into account).

- - - Updated - - -

@OP - Is there a reason you don't just use the Ask Mr. Robot loot council? There's a video and everything you can point people to . . .

[clevin]

/roll is a fine system for casual guilds that don't really care who gets what, but if the guild wants to do progression seriously, there's too much risk that important items go to people who aren't going to do a whole lot with it.

Agreed, though in a 10 man it's fine for the most part. Eventually it will even out.

EPGP is a great system, as it generally rewards people who are contributing, but again, someone who isn't that good may just save up EP.

that's what decay is for and EPGP fully supports that.

The best system for a progression guild is and always be loot council. However, it is completely dependent on having non-biased, trustworthy council members. If your guild's officers can be trusted and are rational, smart people, this system is the best. In a guild the GM wants to gear up the girl trying to get in her pants, however, it's not going to work so well.

TL;DR - Every loot system is based on the presumption that nobody can be trusted, except for loot council. If you do trust them, loot council is the best.

No, the other systems are NOT based on a lack of trust, they're based on eliminating any drama and on an objective criterion or set of criteria. EPGP for example, rewards attendance. It says nothing about whether a given upgrade is given to the best performing DPS or the person for whom it's the biggest upgrade. However, I'd say that giving loot according to those criteria is problematic. If someone isn't good they shouldn't be in the raid period. Loot isn't the right enforcement mechanism for performance.

You also skipped right by one of the biggest issues with loot council - knowledge. If LC is going to say "A will get more from that piece than B or C" they need to really know all of the classes and specs running with them. SOME progression raiders do. Some don't. However, given the number of RLs I've seen who cant use WoL properly to analyze their raid or who judge healers on HPS, I've very little confidence that the vast majority of RLs really know other classes all that well. Yes, the top 100 probably do. Below that? Not so much.

- - - Updated - - -

If there is an automated system to do this, I am on board. It makes sense to get the largest upgrades out there first, making the biggest difference, but the logistical headache of manually doing this and maintaining it accurately seems to render it undesirable.

ANd for the 4th time... you're rewarding people for not working to upgrade their gear outside of the raid if you do this on ilevel.

[Deleted]

we just use normal roll and honestly it's the best

[Miley]

This doesn't seem to factor in anything like attendance, skill difference, or seniority (probey vs full member). It also has no decay factor on the priority points combined with it doesn't really reset between tiers cause its based on ilvl. If you took these into consideration, which you should for fairness, it would be the same thing as epgp. In your current form, the system will maximize your raids overall gear lvl but it will still invite issues between new and veteran raiders.

[judgementofantonidas]

For clarification, I'm an officer, and I personally agree very much so with this system, but I'm weary of the fact that some other raiders think they're being cheated.

_________________

Essentially, loot goes to whomever considers the item the largest upgrade (All player gear is treated as being not upgraded yet).

Players who have to forfeit the loot (due to it not being as much an upgrade) receive priority rating equal to half (rounded down) the ilvl difference between their own gear (treated as non upgraded) and the piece that was given to a different player.

Players can spend priority rating to artificially increase the ilvl gap between their current gear and dropped loot to attain gear.

Example:

Boss 1:
Player 1 has an ilvl 528 0/2 Sword, Player 2 has a 510 2/2 (Treated as 502). A 553 weapon drops and is given to Player 2. Player 1 receives 12 priority rating. ( (553-528) / 2 = 12.5)

Boss 2:
Player 1 has an ilvl 540 helm, Player 2 has a 528 helm. A 553 helm drops and is given to Player 2. Player 1 gains 6 priority rating for a total of 18

Boss 3:
Player 1 has an ilvl 540 chest, Player 2 has a 528 chest. A 559 warforged chest drops. Whilst Player 2 has a 31 ilvl difference and Player 1 has a 19 ilvl difference, Player 1 spends 13 of his 18 rating to artifically attain a 32 ilvl difference.

Player 1 receives the warforged chest and now sits at 5 priority rating.

__________________

This system was chosen for two reasons:

* Making sure progression remains the largest priority for the guild by ensuring upgrades make the largest possible difference
* The Priority Rating system helps counteract under geared/newer players getting ALL the loot, this rewards better players by still giving them a chance to attain loot

The biggest complaints here are:

* Better players are being rewarded the least
* BiS gear is being ignored entirely

My GM feels that prioritising better players to get gear means that the drops are making smaller differences thus slowing down progression. BiS is being ignored because we plan on doing Heroic content eventually which means BiS normal gear will just be upgraded anyway.

I'd like to know everyone's opinion here. We're at the point where we're considering telling those players to just leave if they dislike it. I feel players should put progression above their own gear, but I dont want to tell people this if the consensus is that its wrong.

I personally dissagree with any loot system that ends up being a point based bidding war where the long term members can basically stymie any new members based on how their points accumulate.

Secondly gear should be pushed to the player/class that will most benefit the raid not randomly to who feels then need it or who it is the biggest upgrade for. This just makes people feel good but does not take the better interest of the raid as a whole into account.

The best form of loot distribution is good ole loot council so long as the council is fair, impartial, and only has the needs of the raid group in mind.

[DakonBlackblade]

Gear is a large factor but this... seems like too much of a headache. I have a guild raid group that just uses their heads, we each inspect and trade loot around if we feel we've got enough to get by and the upgrade is minute compared to someone else. If everyone is fairly even, then the lucky upgrade is simply a roll away. No DKP, no arguing, no mess. Not in the entire time I've raided with my guild. (years)

If you believe gear is such a problem as to go through something like this, then maybe there's something more fundamentally flawed with the characters in your group.

I mean I'd be OKAY with a system like this...really I would. But if some of your raiders are feeling cheated by it, maybe it's best to ask them why that is. Not us.
I would never dare take gear that a fresh recruit needs to be on par with me. Gear is a means to an end for all of us, if someone is weaker than the rest, then they're a burden on all of us.

Gear for the raid that is used is good gear. Always.

Anyone more obsessed with their characters own performance, rather than the whole raid, needs an attitude adjustment.

This post pretty much sums up how I feel about loot distribution in a guild perfectly. In my guild we basicaly talk amongst ourselves and decide who gets the loot, like if somehting drops that I and someone else can use we discuss it with one another see whod get the best upgrade from that particular iten and end of story.

[Therougetitan]

Man, some guild sound like they have greedy members. My guild just does loot council which has always been fair with loot, and when there is a lot of people who need it my raid mates always try to pass loot and share.

[Axelond]

You need to start seeing gear as a resource you use to be able to slay harder bosses not as a personal epeen rating. In 10 man most items only have 1 or 2 people that can use the item and they probably know who the raid will gain the most from it. For hot shit items like trinkets there is most likely a class that will benefit more from it. Like range amp trinket is Insane for elemental shaman because they benefit from spirit and gain a huge benefit from the crit damage. If people are basically tied just /roll it.
It's also a good idea to decide who will get the item next if it's an item that like something half the raid needs.

For offspecs just consider the off specs in your guild that you actually use like the Hybrid that is going healer on 3 healing fights probably need some healing gear and the melee that is going tank for dark shaman need at least a few tank pieces.

loot council and just communication is the best loot system.

Remember that generally: More advanced loot systems take more time to manage and distribute loot with, That time can be better spent killing bosses.

[royals]

I must agree with what most people are saying here. I run our 10 man, I raid lead, I also do a 1 man loot council. I've been doing it since 5.0 and my team know I am fair and balanced. People discuss out loud if it is a 2pc/4pc, BiS, replacing a shit item ect. and people will pass accordingly as well.

As with any relationship, communication is key, complicated systems leave room for "gaming" or cheating as people have said before. LC is the way to go if there is trust in your group. If there isn't, just /roll it for the least amount of drama.

[herpecin]

i believe the best way to do loot in 10 man is just with a /roll. keep control of the tier pieces to complete set bonuses(better to have half your raid with 2pc than all your raid with 1pc). also you will find that in 10s most people are going to be fair "i already got a trinket tonight let bill have the shoulders". also there is hardly any loot competition in 10 aside from weps/trinks.

for 25s im a fan of loot council. yes it can be manipulated, but any loot system can be(trust me ive done it to them ALL). just have a 5 person council spread across classes/roles and you should be fine. it also helps to have a rotation of who sits on the council, so it doesnt end up like congress.

[Normie]

This system is okay-ish in spirit, but it would be better if players could just resolve loot distribution informally. (As you can see in several dozen of the above posts.)

If you have a few members of your raid who are very difficult to satisfy with regard to loot, then the problem isn't the loot, but those players.

And as some other folks have said, if you don't trust your members to distribute loot in the best interests of the raid, then you might as well use loot council. In the short term it will work. However, in the long run, loot council blows and is worse than every other alternative no matter how terrible.