Shadow spec before Mists of Pandaria, and now..

[Reposed]

Also, the rotation is more simple now since you only have to keep track of two DoTs instead of three, since DP is a Shadow Orb dump now.

How was casting DP once every 18sec MORE complex than it's current iteration? This baffles me...

[Raone]

You serious? Haste benefited DoTs in Wrath. I stacked the shit out of Haste.

Also, the rotation is more simple now since you only have to keep track of two DoTs instead of three, since DP is a Shadow Orb dump now.

How was casting DP once every 18sec MORE complex than it's current iteration? This baffles me...

Also SW:P had a high chance to refresh on Mindflay ticks so our single target rotation was only 2 dots and DP lasted longer then our current dots. Also tab dotting was just refreshing VT on target as you could just use mindflay to refresh the SW:P duration on multiple targets and DP was only usable on one target.

The only difficult part of our Cata rotation was keeping the DoT buffs up all the time and at max stacks.

That being said I think I prefer our old rotation, Insanity is a very annoying talent in all these extremely mobile fights. Since the beginning of Cata the only thing I've wished for my SP is to be more mobile and they've done everything they can to make us less mobile lol.

[Ignotum]

Why only two choices? Anyways TBC all the way with og swd . LOL swd during curator- evocation . on hydross switches, ROS . Good times.

[Schattengest]

More fun on cata, and on LK, this is the worst state ever.

[Deleted]

Why only two choices? Anyways TBC all the way with og swd . LOL swd during curator- evocation . on hydross switches, ROS . Good times.

Well most specs would be considered "broken" if they had TBC and Vanilla mechanics today.

As for the topic; I loved shadow priests in Cata, they were a lot more fun than they are now. But that's just my opinion.

[Squishy Tia]

Do you remember how the Shadow spec was before Mists of Pandaria, in Cataclysm? And before that again?
In which expansion did you like the Shadow spec the most?

I didn't really like Shadow spec until Cataclysm, where the devs had finally gotten our DoTs and abilities to line up fairly decently. We weren't tops on the DPS charts unless it was a multi-DoT fight, but the fluidity of the spec was just so much more enjoyable overall, even with the odd man out mechanic of the shadow orbs.

In MoP our abilities don't line up for squat, and I feel like I'm constantly having to look at my timers to refresh my DoTs while I'm trying to manage everything else. I spend more time worrying about something dropping off or not lining up than I do actually looking at what I'm attacking. It's really aggravating.

The glyph "revamp" (or dumbing down as it really was) did more harm than good, especially with very few glyphs being presented for each spec, making the choice not much of one and essentially mandating most of what is there (Frost Mage glyphs are a shining example of this). There is just so much less variation in playstyle and more emphasis by the devs on us to do it "their way". It's as if the WoW devs decided to just push aside any notion that the players that have been playing the game for years, many longer than some of the devs themselves have been coding for WoW, had any real grasp on the gmae and somehow don't know jack and are always wrong (I've yet to see GC refute us with actual data and instead use the circular argument that sims/logs are "inherently flawed" - funny since they use logs as their data, so what makes all other logs worthless but theirs?).

I caved in and gave MoP a try, and ultimately found it to both be utterly disappointing in gameplay, and due to the absurd class changes that continue to happen on a constant basis, I can't even enjoy a spec without worrying if I'll have to relearn it yet again in the next patch. The devs have done more damage to all specs in one expansion than all of the teams prior to them did in every other expansion combined.

Shadow was finally in a good spot in Cataclysm and was enjoyable. So was healing. And utility. So long to that unfortunately. I do tech support for the game, and I find that more enjoyable than the game itself. Developer hubris FTW?

[Hooked]

Cata was way better than mop and cata still sucked.

[Deleted]

You serious? Haste benefited DoTs in Wrath. I stacked the shit out of Haste.

yeah, 7/8/9 sec duration dot was shitload of fun ;d

i loved cata priest. i hate mop priest.

[Deleted]

Anyone remember mind spike rotation in ds? It was fun to top as an sp. Now vt hits for noodles and so does sw pain. Complexity wise, idk, rerolled wlock cause sp's are so shit.

[Dierdre]

You serious? Haste benefited DoTs in Wrath. I stacked the shit out of Haste.

Only after patch 3.3 IIRC.

While shadow has evolved nicely from mana battery to viable dps spec, I feel it's also been dumbed down a bit. I'd keep the new stuff like t90 talents, shadow orbs, baseline t15 2pc bonus, even a nerfed down version of ToF, but I'd also like stuff back like:

Spirit tap
Mana Burn (I know, not gonna happen ever)
Improved Shadow Word: Pain
Veiled Shadows
Shadow Power
Twisted Faith

I'd also make Dominate Mind baseline and substitute it with a talent that increases healing by 20% while in shadowform and SWP damage while not in shadowform.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone remember mind spike rotation in ds?

You mean arcane mage rotation?

[veiledy0]

Cata Shadow ofc. I can't remember myself being bellow 3rd on Skada on any fight. Now I don't even use Skada anymore. Not to even go into any further analysis, as it'd just make me cry how stupid Shadow is now, and Ariadne has stated most of it already anyways.

While shadow has evolved nicely from mana battery to viable dps spec

I prefer MOP compared to cata, for the crazy amount of support heals we offer, while doing competitive dps.

Can I get a beta key for this game you 2 are playing?

[Deleted]

Sadly never got to play shadow in MoP. I've always been a healer, so it's been switching between holy and disc before MoP. With holy being complete garbage in T14 and T15, I kind of wanted to give shadow a try, but letting the strongest 10-man heal spec switch to mediocre DPS and having that spot filled with another mediocre healer simply wasn't an option for the raids I was in.

And right now holy is actually somewhat decent again, in fact I'm required to go holy on Malkorok, so having shadow as second spec is once more impossible. Not to mention that the gear required for shadow is the exact opposite of gear required for disc.

[emni]

I loved Shadow in Cataclysm. There were so many buffs and debuffs to keep a track of and when you got them all rolling, it felt like this wonderful symphony that worked magically together. The DragonSoul 4-piece made it even more fun and required you to change up your rotation completely, it was awesome. I was having so much fun that I actually mained a DPS spec first time since early Wrath.

Mists Shadow is just so simplistic and boring. My main spec is healer now, but the few times I play shadow I can never get over just how idiot-proof the spec is. There is no intricacy to the rotation, no cooldowns to be timed, not even any fun utility spells like warlock portals. Just 2 dots, one finisher and a few fillers with a set priority. The most complex thing one can achieve is using the Insanity talent to its full potential, but even that is kind of meh.

[Dierdre]

Can I get a beta key for this game you 2 are playing?

Why yes, it's tons of fun.

Just because you don't top every fight it doesn't mean the spec is not competitive. Shadow sucked through all MoP until now. Sure, you won't do 1M dps like a warlock or top while facerolling like a mage. But right now I'm consistently top 1 or 2 in at least 4/14 fights, and only go +10% below average on 3/14 of them, so yes, I'd say we're in a pretty good spot compared to 5.0 - 5.3.

[Deleted]

Not to mention that the gear required for shadow is the exact opposite of gear required for disc.

How so? As shadow your stat priority is going for one of the haste caps and then mastery and crit are roughly equal depending on various factors. So the stats you have as shadow can fluctuate. With setbonus, which a main spec shadow likely has, you'll have an even amount of mastery and crit. As holy you generally don't want crit at all (it is just wasted in overhealing) whereas as disc your stat prio depends on the fight and playstyle but both mastery and crit are very useful. As disc you want less spirit than holy. Less spirit synergizes better with shadow. Those 2 factors favor a disc spec above holy. Add to that shadow priests have had a disc off spec for ages now, and know a little bit how to play it, end result will be most shadow priests are running with a disc off spec right now; not holy.

- - - Updated - - -

But right now I'm consistently top 1 or 2 in at least 4/14 fights

Which 4? Mind searing on Immerseus? Is that even a boss fight? The only fight you can top is Nazgrim. If the rest of your raid is worth their salt it should not be a kill anywhere near the enrage which is good for affliction warlocks who rely on their insane burst on pull. Even with 3 orbs we won't get these numbers on pull since we'd need perfect RNG various times.

[Dierdre]

Which 4?

Protectors, Galakras, Nazgrim and Spoils. I suck big time on Juggernaut, Malkorok and Thok. To be fair, our lock is better at playing destro than affli. But then again, locks are outliers, we are well balanced with other dps specs at the moment. You don't need to top every fight to be viable.

Mind searing on Immerseus? Is that even a boss fight?

Yup, last time I checked it was.

The only fight you can top is Nazgrim.

Nope.

EDIT: Also, I run 10-man. I'm sure if you run 25-man you do get screwed by more than one warlock.

[Deleted]

Protectors oh yeah I can top there if I Sear. But I shouldn't. Galakras same. Spoils same. I see a pattern here.

I looked you up on armory and it seems you're talking about normal mode 10 man which confirms what I suspected.

If your lock can only play destruction that explains a lot, perhaps also about the level you're playing as a group. If I'd tell my raid leader I'm great at playing FDCL and Mindbender but MFI I don't fully master yet I'm sure he'd kick me out. You can read that as recruitment for warlock is open in your guild.

Our locks can play all 3 specs at a competent level. They reforge all the time. In ToT they used all 3 specs. If you're able to get your damage near the mage please call me. Their multidot is insane.

Juggernaut, Malkorok and Thok are RNG games (if you respec) and a skilled shadow priest can do a bit more damage, but it just isn't nowhere near the damage a warlock can pull out. Or a moonkin.

Compare shadow to mage and priest healer who compete with us on cloth gear.

Mage, only fight they're bad at: Thok.

Priest healer, strong in 5.4, with 2 viable specs.

Moonkin > shadow, too. Only thing they cannot do is Sear. Big deal. You got locks for that if needed, or warriors. You don't take a shadow priest for Mind Sear. More so in 10 man.

Elemental, they're pretty much in the same boat as us, but they have 2 advantages gear wise: they have a not very popular tier token, and they easily get mail caster loot while we gotta compete with priest healers, locks, and mages.

Tell me, why would you want a shadow priest in 10 man raiding, or raiding in general? Why should loot council give the shadow priest loot? I mean it can't be the amazing off healing you did on Norushen HC cause you're a 10 man player. Or is it just that you're here to tell us how amazing you are. Cause I remain saying if you are playing with equally skilled players you won't find shadow viable...

[Dierdre]

Protectors oh yeah I can top there if I Sear. But I shouldn't. Galakras same. Spoils same. I see a pattern here.

Why would you ever sear on protectors???? (Or galakras or spoils other than for quilen for that matter?) And how exactly would you not utterly suck by searing? I see a pattern here. :P

I looked you up on armory and it seems you're talking about normal mode 10 man which confirms what I suspected.

Ummm... nope? 5/13 H (yes, we get to work and sleep every now and then).

If your lock can only play destruction that explains a lot, perhaps also about the level you're playing as a group.

I've never claimed world first. Still, he's great at playing destro, even on fights where destro would normally suck balls vs affli.

If I'd tell my raid leader I'm great at playing FDCL and Mindbender but MFI I don't fully master yet I'm sure he'd kick me out. You can read that as recruitment for warlock is open in your guild.

Different talents <> Different spec. Affli is a completely different gameplay from destro, and more importantly, we've never had the need for him to go affli. That should speak more about your locks than about ours.

Our locks can play all 3 specs at a competent level. They reforge all the time. In ToT they used all 3 specs.

Kudos for you. As I stated, locks are still outliers; that doesn't change the fact that shadow is in a MUCH better place than pre 5.4 and fairly balanced against other dps specs.

Moonkin > shadow

Except for the 3 fights I mentioned, I respectfully disagree. But yes, they don't roll for cloth.

Tell me, why would you want a shadow priest in 10 man raiding, or raiding in general?

You tell me, I'm not the one claiming being an awful spec on my group. We run with hunter, rogue, mage, warrior, enh shaman, destro lock, and me taking turns between fights, and it's very unusual for us to ask someone to bench out of shortcomings for a given fight (even me on H Qon where I definitely sucked balls for 90% of the fight). Could it be easier with 3 locks and 3 ass rogues? Maybe. That doesn't mean the other specs are shit.

Why should loot council give the shadow priest loot? I mean it can't be the amazing off healing you did on Norushen HC cause you're a 10 man player. Or is it just that you're here to tell us how amazing you are. Cause I remain saying if you are playing with equally skilled players you won't find shadow viable...

That's the thing, I'm nowhere close to the most skilled player in my group. I keyboard turn and stand in the fire, stack with sha sear and run away from rifts of corruption because they look scary. I should really, really, really suck from my utter badness. And still, I don't. :P

I repeat, just because you don't top every fight it doesn't mean you suck. That much.

[veiledy0]

But right now I'm consistently top 1 or 2 in at least 4/14 fights, and only go +10% below average on 3/14 of them

To be fair, our lock is better at playing destro than affli.

As long as they consider casual information like this a source for game balance, instead of listening to people who have an actual clue about the game, shadow will remain a "viable dps spec".

[Stormcall]

Cata(or Wrath) shadow any day.