Garrosh 10 v 25 balance issues

[Deleted]

My point was you have 6 people to interrupt 2 vs 20 people to interrupt 4. I might have flubbed some math on my original post but my point was that you have a greater margin for error on 25.

Remember, I'm not talking about Garrosh vs. Top End raid team here. I'm talking about Garrosh vs. Average raid team. Top end teams are laughing at this fight, average raiders are struggling. When you start talking about average players, you have to account for margin of error on certain abilities. The fact is 10 man normal asks you to be 16% better at interrupting than 25 man normal teams. That might not seem like much, but it -is- a difference. But like I said, I don't really think the mechanic should be changed, it was just a point of reference.

Wrong. In 10m the interrupting is a lot easier since the tanks can always reliably take care of all of them. It's alot harder to assign 4 people to get interrupted than to have 2 MC's that always will be taken care of the tanks.

There is the proverb, the more cooks the worse potage.

[Chiaki]

Yeah I messed that math up. 8 possible targets for 2 spells. That means you personally have a 1/4 chance of being controlled. Two people having a 1/4 chance of being controlled = 2/16, or 1/8. Or if you want to get technical, 2/8 for the first mind control and 1/7 for the second. So yeah my math was off but its still 3.5% compared with a virtual 0 chance of it ever happening to 25s.

That's still wrong.
A pool of 8 targets, you pick 2 of them randomly regardless of order equals 1/8 times 1/7 times 2.

You can look at it the other way if you want and say there's a pool of 4 people and you pick one of them randomly. This is 1/4. But that's it. You can't conclude anything of it for a pool and pick double its size, this is plain wrong. Which you prove yourself:

2/8 for the first mind control is correct, because order is irrelevant next you multiply it with 1/7 which turns out 1/28. But then you're screwing your own assumption of 1/8 which you did one sentence before.

[Nitros14]

Partially true. 6 weeks after release, 10 man Lei Shen 23% completion rate vs 38% for 25 man. That's 15% difference vs the 24% difference we see today. I think 14% difference is statistically significant.

Maybe that has something to do with the part where Lei Shen was a lot more annoying on 25-man due to stuff like having the same room to spread out 15 more people in, organizing four times as many bouncing bolts, inability to let the tanks solo two of the quadrants.

[lockedout]

Silence doesn't interrupt during phase 3.

Yes it does.

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Warlocks on the warlock forum on mmo-champ claimed the immune text were for silences so if it's a pure silence it wouldn't interuppt, it has to be an interuppt tied to it like Observer (warlock pet) silence + interrupt

Hi I am a warlock, I have read the thread where 1 confused warlock claims he sees an immune text when using his observers special.
When I use it I get the silence interrupt also if I sac fel I get the silence interrupt.
I actually tested it after reading that thread and well hes just wrong sorry it works fine.

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I'd really like to know if any 10-man groups just stack up on the boss for non-empowered whirling corruptions. It's pretty nice to be able to do it on 25-man and it seems like it should still be doable on 10-man, assuming a somewhat decent comp.


They must've fixed the mechanic, then. Generally, priest silences don't work on anything immune to silence effects (which I've been told is the case in phase 3).

Why would you need to stack on the boss for whirling?
They didn't fix or change any mechanic on garrosh silence worked since day one.

[Ailylia]

That's still wrong.
A pool of 8 targets, you pick 2 of them randomly regardless of order equals 1/8 times 1/7 times 2.

You can look at it the other way if you want and say there's a pool of 4 people and you pick one of them randomly. This is 1/4. But that's it. You can't conclude anything of it for a pool and pick double its size, this is plain wrong. Which you prove yourself:

2/8 for the first mind control is correct, because order is irrelevant next you multiply it with 1/7 which turns out 1/28. But then you're screwing your own assumption of 1/8 which you did one sentence before.

Thats what I said, I agreed it is 2/8 * 1/7 = 3.5%. Either way its not too terribly difficult to deal with so lets just not worry about the MC mechanic and call it a wash.

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Wrong. In 10m the interrupting is a lot easier since the tanks can always reliably take care of all of them. It's alot harder to assign 4 people to get interrupted than to have 2 MC's that always will be taken care of the tanks.

There is the proverb, the more cooks the worse potage.

I play a tank. Take this scenario. It is phase 3. We kite the adds on phase 3, so there is essentially 1 tank to handle the MC. Oh by the way, 2 of your BEST dps just got MC'd as an empowered MC (it is phase 3) you interrupt the first one, and a dps scrambles to get the second one, you get it, but because 2 of your best dps (of your 6 dps players) are the ones MCd you don't manage to get them down before the second cast. Your interrupts are blown, the other 4 dps interrupts could be blown, but now you have to hope that even if you did assign primary and backup interrupters that they didn't panic and blow their interrupt early, or they have a secondary means of interrupting.

Yeah, it can get more tricky than you're making out out to be.

Still, we can drop the 2 vs 4 interrupt thing even though I still think it should have been 2 vs 5. In either situation I don't think it raises the difficulty of the fight significantly enough to worry about. The time on boss thing however and the whirling corruption adds do trouble me, however.

[lockedout]

I play a tank. Take this scenario. It is phase 3. We kite the adds on phase 3, so there is essentially 1 tank to handle the MC. Oh by the way, 2 of your BEST dps just got MC'd as an empowered MC (it is phase 3) you interrupt the first one, and a dps scrambles to get the second one, you get it, but because 2 of your best dps (of your 6 dps players) are the ones MCd you don't manage to get them down before the second cast. Your interrupts are blown, the other 4 dps interrupts could be blown, but now you have to hope that even if you did assign primary and backup interrupters that they didn't panic and blow their interrupt early, or they have a secondary means of interrupting.

Yeah, it can get more tricky than you're making out out to be.

Still, we can drop the 2 vs 4 interrupt thing even though I still think it should have been 2 vs 5. In either situation I don't think it raises the difficulty of the fight significantly enough to worry about. The time on boss thing however and the whirling corruption adds do trouble me, however.

So if 2 dps get MC'd the other dps cant break them out before they cast a SECOND MC?
I mean I cast one spell and it breaks them maybe 2 if one didn't crit.
Tell your dps to stop being bad and actually try to interrupt and not just tunnel the boss.

[Numiro]

Wrong. In 10m the interrupting is a lot easier since the tanks can always reliably take care of all of them. It's alot harder to assign 4 people to get interrupted than to have 2 MC's that always will be taken care of the tanks.

There is the proverb, the more cooks the worse potage.

What do you do if a ranged players gets MC'd out of range? This would probably happend way more often for an average guild then a hardcore guild so this is crucial to how the fight plays out for the average guild.

Let me use an example, let's say you have 1 SP, 1 Lock playing destro (has to sac), one hunter, 2 melee DPS 2 tanks and 3 healers

You're looking at one ranged interuppt over 10 players, that's in a best case scenario a gamble you're going to lose most of the time.

I've chosen to put the lock as destro with sac because the voidwalker sacrifice is super good on this fight compared to most others (the sac shield is OP as hell in 10 man), so you're basically forcing the lock to sac the felhunter even though that's a huge nerf to his survivability, just so that he can aid with interuppts, now imagine if there's one add spawning 30 yards away from the boss, it takes two interuppts for it to either die or reach melee (from 50+ pulls before our kill this is what were about average because they sometimes run without any casts and sometimes stand still).

So we have 50/50 chance of that player not casting a spell if they NAIL the interuppts (average guilds don't really do this so they'd have to gamble for this not to happend).

So let me sum up the parts that are harder as 10's:

You sac a lot of defensive options (As a destro lock in 556 I sac for 1 million hp shields, that's not a small CD.)
You STILL have to gamble to have a 50% chance of wiping because the add didn't move fast enough / the raid didn't react fast enough
You have to switch to the weapon to kill it (immolate + SP dots + ele shammy dots wasn't enough to bring it to 50% before the next weapon spawned)
You have more adds per player, making it a complete mess to kill them because you have 6 DPS's who're ready to pick an add, roughly 80% of the adds will be picked up (since the chance of an add NOT getting picked up in 25's is ignorable and probably >2%) that combined with the overkill aspect as well as the target swapping aspects you're bound to have it harder on 10's since you have to spend more time DPSing adds (argument that they run around isn't exactly a decent argument, have you ever heard about a stun?).

25's:
You have to stun the adds when they're spread after spawning.
Can't imagine anything else, please help me here.

[lockedout]

What do you do if a ranged players gets MC'd out of range? This would probably happend way more often for an average guild then a hardcore guild so this is crucial to how the fight plays out for the average guild.

Let me use an example, let's say you have 1 SP, 1 Lock playing destro (has to sac), one hunter, 2 melee DPS 2 tanks and 3 healers

You're looking at one ranged interuppt over 10 players,

Well SP can interrupt, lock can interrupt hunter can interrupt I know the 2 melee can interrupt without knowing their classes and so can the tanks, possibly some of the healers as well, what are you talking about exactly?

[Belloc]

Thats what I said, I agreed it is 2/8 * 1/7 = 3.5%. Either way its not too terribly difficult to deal with so lets just not worry about the MC mechanic and call it a wash.

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I play a tank. Take this scenario. It is phase 3. We kite the adds on phase 3, so there is essentially 1 tank to handle the MC. Oh by the way, 2 of your BEST dps just got MC'd as an empowered MC (it is phase 3) you interrupt the first one, and a dps scrambles to get the second one, you get it, but because 2 of your best dps (of your 6 dps players) are the ones MCd you don't manage to get them down before the second cast. Your interrupts are blown, the other 4 dps interrupts could be blown, but now you have to hope that even if you did assign primary and backup interrupters that they didn't panic and blow their interrupt early, or they have a secondary means of interrupting.

If you're kiting the adds, MCs are going to be extremely visible (since they won't be mixed in with the adds). As such, acquiring them as targets is incredibly easy. If they're stacked up, as they should be, you can already have ground AOEs down, which will help out with a non-insignificant portion of the damage required. Next, you have 4 DPS and one tank available to break out the MCs. Cleaves will go a long way towards breaking the MCs nearly immediately, but you might be low on cleaves... alright, but that's still 4 dps and 1 tank.

Let me be clear here: If you've got 4 DPS swapping to one target and the tank getting the first interrupt on the OTHER target, that first target is going to break before it even has a chance to get a cast off. If you can't nearly instantly break an MC with 4 DPS on it, then you've got a problem. After that MC breaks, everyone switches to the 2nd target and breaks it. By this point, your tank has used one interrupt and, if DPS was slow, one other player has used an interrupt. Just like every other interrupt heavy fight in the game, you need to set an interrupt rotation and stick to it.

Proper planning and play makes MCs a non-issue. If you consider it an issue, then you need better planning, better play, or both. The example you gave assumed that players failed to properly handle their jobs. If you always assume player error, you're always going to wipe.

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What do you do if a ranged players gets MC'd out of range? This would probably happend way more often for an average guild then a hardcore guild so this is crucial to how the fight plays out for the average guild.

You keep practicing the fight, having players watch the MC cooldown, and get them in melee range for easier interrupts until they finally learn how to do the fight, just like every other raid group in the world.

[Ailylia]

So if 2 dps get MC'd the other dps cant break them out before they cast a SECOND MC?
I mean I cast one spell and it breaks them maybe 2 if one didn't crit.
Tell your dps to stop being bad and actually try to interrupt and not just tunnel the boss.

Well, aside from the fact that I'm talking about the empowered adds, you're missing the point that I'm not saying it's terribly difficult, what I'm saying is the margin for error is greater on 25m than it is on 10m.

Telling people to "stop being bad" is hardly what I'd call a constructive thing to say.

[Strafir]

As someone who has defeated both 10 and 25 normal Garrosh I can safely say that 10man is overall the easier version. If you're having any kind of problems it comes down to people not playing into their strengths, there is no raid composition that doesn't have taunts, stuns, interrupts, offheals and cooldowns for the numerous phase abilities.

[Ailylia]

Proper planning and play makes MCs a non-issue. If you consider it an issue, then you need better planning, better play, or both. The example you gave assumed that players failed to properly handle their jobs. If you always assume player error, you're always going to wipe.

I totally agree that the MCs are pretty much a non-issue if handled properly. My argument however was that the margin for error was higher on the 25m side, meaning more people can mess it up without it causing a wipe, making it an easier mechanic to deal with on 25 than 10. If you'll note, I didn't say I thought this mechanic on 10m should be nerfed, rather I questioned why Blizzard didn't make it affect 5 targets instead of 4 on the 25 side. That would have leveled the playing field a bit I think. Every video I've watched of 25s (mind you, the sample size is small and they are of course, kill vids) the MCs were entirely a non issue weather they used the stacking strat or not. I think it should have been slightly more challenging for 25s.

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As someone who has defeated both 10 and 25 normal Garrosh I can safely say that 10man is overall the easier version. If you're having any kind of problems it comes down to people not playing into their strengths, there is no raid composition that doesn't have taunts, stuns, interrupts, offheals and cooldowns for the numerous phase abilities.

Anecdotal. Furthermore, I doubt your comparison is between teams of equal ilvl, and you're drawing from a 13/14H guild, which is not your average raider target. I'm saying 25 man is easier for an average 25 man raid guild to complete than 10 man is for an average strict 10 man guild.

[Numiro]

You keep practicing the fight, having players watch the MC cooldown, and get them in melee range for easier interrupts until they finally learn how to do the fight, just like every other raid group in the world.

So why doesn't 25's have to wipe as many times? Doesn't that imply that the fight requires more practice on 10 man and is also therefore harder?

Well SP can interrupt, lock can interrupt hunter can interrupt I know the 2 melee can interrupt without knowing their classes and so can the tanks, possibly some of the healers as well, what are you talking about exactly?

SP can't interuppt (assuming my knowledge of the targeting mechanics is correct the MC'd player is still a player and is therefore immune to SP interrupt), hunter can interrupt and so can lock (assuming you sac his biggest defensive cooldown which is massive in 10's), melee can't interrupt a player from range and neither can tanks, now imagine hunter gets MC'd out of range (30 yards from boss), you have one interuppt to kill him with 2 ranged DPS classes that neither has good burst on an MC'd target (lock tied to chaos bolt = instakill; priest tied to dots)

Are you still struggling to see why it's an easier mechanic on 25 man?

[Strafir]

Anecdotal. Furthermore, I doubt your comparison is between teams of equal ilvl, and you're drawing from a 13/14H guild, which is not your average raider target. I'm saying 25 man is easier for an average 25 man raid guild to complete than 10 man is for an average strict 10 man guild.

Seeing how the 25man kills were made with half the raid being alts, and the 10man kills with purely alts with a few weeks worth of gear I think my evaluation is quite accurate.

Players in 10mans have to take more personal responsibility because they need to deal with for example killing the engineers alone, when in 25mans you rely on a small group and how it averages so its more noticeable when someone fcks up. Encounters shouldn't be nerfed because some 10man guilds are unable to recruit people who can manage some things without assistance.

[Reyzzz]

Whirling Corruption

Non-Empowered seems easier on 25 simply because there are more aoe healing effects on the ground typically, but we'll call it a wash and not worried about the non-empowered ability.

Empowered:

10 man - very difficult to coordinate killing adds without them becoming empowered, 5-6 dps vs. 8 adds with 1m health, difficult to keep separated especially off 2 healers with healing aggro and not a lot of dps with aggro abilities.
25 man - same number of adds so 17-19 dps depending on how many healers you're carrying vs 8 adds with 3m health. Seems much easier to keep separated.

Suggestion: I would prefer to see 4 adds with 2 million health on 10m. Even though that still means we have to do more dps than 25s, it at least gives us a better chance to keep them separate.

I agree, less but tougher adds would be a good change while keeping the balance.

Touch of Y'shaarj

10 man - 2 raid members targeted, non-tanks so chance of being selected is 1/4. 1/8 chance of having both healers MC'd if 2 healing.
25 man - 4 raid members targeted, non-tanks so chance of being targeted is 4/23 (lets just say 1/6). Chance of all healers being MC'd is usually 0 since most teams run with 5 or more healers, but even if you have only 4 healers the chance is somewhere around 4% that you'd have all 4 MC'd at once.

If empowered, even worse, as we have fewer pure interrupts on 10m than on 25.

Suggestion: I can't think of a way to fix this one because blizzard never (almost never) "buffs" a fight after release, and the best way to make this fair would be to give 25m 5 MCs to deal with instead of 4. The other way would be to take away one from each and have 3 on 25 and 1 on 10m (making 10m slightly easier) but I think overall that change would trivialize the mechanic on both sides.

I'm just gonna ignore your flawed math, and give my honest opinion. The last time I killed Garrosh we brought 3 melee (on 10 man), so we had plenty of interrupts, but what I would like to see MC to break at 50% so the chance to get multiple casts per MC is far smaller.

[Deleted]

I totally agree that the MCs are pretty much a non-issue if handled properly. My argument however was that the margin for error was higher on the 25m side, meaning more people can mess it up without it causing a wipe, making it an easier mechanic to deal with on 25 than 10. If you'll note, I didn't say I thought this mechanic on 10m should be nerfed, rather I questioned why Blizzard didn't make it affect 5 targets instead of 4 on the 25 side. That would have leveled the playing field a bit I think. Every video I've watched of 25s (mind you, the sample size is small and they are of course, kill vids) the MCs were entirely a non issue weather they used the stacking strat or not. I think it should have been slightly more challenging for 25s.

I've done both 10 and 25, and it's alot easier to coordinate it in 10m. In 25m there is a much higher risk for your average raider to accidentally interrupt the same target because it's really messy to call out on TeamSpeak who takes which out of the 4 targets.

In 10m it's very easy to assign on the go who takes what MC since it's only 2 of them.

MCs were never an issue in 10m for us. For me it just feels like you are looking for an excuse why you havent killed Garrosh in ur 10m guild yet. Or if you actually killed it, you're looking for an excuse why it took you so long.

[Snuglz]

My point was you have 6 people to interrupt 2 vs 20 people to interrupt 4. I might have flubbed some math on my original post but my point was that you have a greater margin for error on 25.

Remember, I'm not talking about Garrosh vs. Top End raid team here. I'm talking about Garrosh vs. Average raid team. Top end teams are laughing at this fight, average raiders are struggling. When you start talking about average players, you have to account for margin of error on certain abilities. The fact is 10 man normal asks you to be 16% better at interrupting than 25 man normal teams. That might not seem like much, but it -is- a difference. But like I said, I don't really think the mechanic should be changed, it was just a point of reference.

Isn't that the point of raiding to face against content you have to work at to be able to complete. This can only make you a better Raider and therefor pushing yourself and your guild and preparing you for even harder content. 10m have a lot more accountability from their raiders but that is what challenges them to step up and perform as a raid team. This only sounds like a good thing. 10m are designed to be a "core" group of players getting together and killing content and raiding. In that sense there is better room for communication. Use that advantage and manage the raid team to do what needs to be done. Yes there are challenges for 10m but use those as a instrument to better your raid team.

[Sicktight]

Players in 10mans have to take more personal responsibility because they need to deal with for example killing the engineers alone, when in 25mans you rely on a small group and how it averages so its more noticeable when someone fcks up. Encounters shouldn't be nerfed because some 10man guilds are unable to recruit people who can manage some things without assistance.

In 25s they have me and another on the engineer. I'm a rogue and honestly the other person usually doesn't help kill him. I can solo him just fine. Now if we are talking about the beginning of the patch two people on the engineer was what it would take. As far as the 10 vs 25 debate goes, 25 mans who were on Garrosh were cutting down to 10s the first week to kill Garrosh. I don't think most were doing this because of time rather an inability to kill it on 25 at that gear level.

[Ailylia]

Seeing how the 25man kills were made with half the raid being alts, and the 10man kills with purely alts with a few weeks worth of gear I think my evaluation is quite accurate.

Players in 10mans have to take more personal responsibility because they need to deal with for example killing the engineers alone, when in 25mans you rely on a small group and how it averages so its more noticeable when someone fcks up. Encounters shouldn't be nerfed because some 10man guilds are unable to recruit people who can manage some things without assistance.

Your average ilvl for your first garrosh kill was 554.65 as reported by wowprogress. So for just a bunch of alts you were fairly well geared, since that appears to be right around the average for killing the fight.

What I'd really like to see for hard evidence is the average item level of guilds stuck at 13/14 10m vs the average item level of guilds stuck at 13/14 25m. Normalized to exclude the best 10% and the worst 10%. I can't speculate what that number would be, but that would be the best objective way I know of to compare the two.

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As far as the 10 vs 25 debate goes, 25 mans who were on Garrosh were cutting down to 10s the first week to kill Garrosh. I don't think most were doing this because of time rather an inability to kill it on 25 at that gear level.

Take 25-30 people, now take the best 10 of those people. Cherry pick for the fight, bring more ranged, bring more classes that can multidot. I don't think you can soundly make the argument that 10 man is easier because 25s could do this. In fact I would argue that if that happened frequently enough, the 10 vs 25% completion numbers I posted above are even worse.

[Strafir]

What I'd really like to see for hard evidence is the average item level of guilds stuck at 13/14 10m vs the average item level of guilds stuck at 13/14 25m. Normalized to exclude the best 10% and the worst 10%. I can't speculate what that number would be, but that would be the best objective way I know of to compare the two.

This hard evidence you're talking about is both useless and irrational to search for. Statistics and simulation do not take into consideration the horrifying framerate issues 25mans have had throughout the whole expansion. Play both modes and draw a conclusion based on your experience.