Is it just me or DoC(Feral) became mandatory?

[Deleted]

The way DoC works right now (I can only speak for a 25man environment) is that it allows, with some good rng, for some absolutely massive sub 25% rips which will amplify its effectiveness compared to HotW. However, I play DoC because I enjoy the challenge that it presents over HotW and the reward you get if you pull it off. There are a few parses out there where even HotW has destroyed DoC where you wouldn't expect it but a lot of parses are down to lady luck being on your side along with you being on your game.

[aggixx]

Not to start a 10 vs 25 argument or anything but the real top Ferals such as Tazmon, Fragnance and Feromones raid 25man. Looking at 10man is only going to go so far.

Yes, the results are probably distinguishably different from 10 man. 99% different though? Hell no.

Also, DoC is a significantly less "mandatory" then it was last tier when NS was around and the HotW DPS active was completely useless for almost every single encounter.

[Glurp]

Yes, the results are probably distinguishably different from 10 man. 99% different though? Hell no.

99% is clearly an exaggeration. If you thought he literally meant 99% then I don't know what to say.

[Terridon]

Not to start a 10 vs 25 argument or anything but the real top Ferals such as Tazmon, Fragnance and Feromones raid 25man. Looking at 10man is only going to go so far.

Of course, but hardly that much. Somebody did ask him for the same for 25 mans too, which i'm curious about. But mentioning 3 top ferals isn't really enough. After all just 2 people of top 100 ones should have another talent to make it wrong. I would even be nice and say it was okay to say 99% if 5 had it, but so far it seems like a number he randomly pulled for the effect of it.

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99% is clearly an exaggeration. If you thought he literally meant 99% then I don't know what to say.

99% indicates that it's so vast that it's completely broken, which it's nowhere close to be.

[aggixx]

99% is clearly an exaggeration. If you thought he literally meant 99% then I don't know what to say.

Of course not, but if you're going to blatantly exaggerate and say "99%" I would suspect you think that the actual number is remotely close to 99%, which it is not.

Hell, I would actually be surprised if the majority of heroic parses use Dream of Cenarius.

[Glurp]

but so far it seems like a number he randomly pulled for the effect of it.

Yes, an exaggeration.

Hell, I would actually be surprised if the majority of heroic parses use Dream of Cenarius.

I would be too, the Feral in my guild uses HotW.

DoC simply allows you to maximize your DPS more than HotW does. RNG (especially when you consider how powerful Rune procs are) will likely have a larger outcome than talent choice but that doesn't mean DoC won't on average do more DPS.

Would you rather have a DPS range of 380-420k using HotW or 400-440k using DoC?

[Terridon]

Yes, an exaggeration.

Yeah so for all we know it could as well be the directly opposite way, because he didn't even bother to look at it enough to come with a remotely accurate estimate. In the end it end up annoying people and twist if away from the subject, on top of it making for a poor OP.
Let's leave it at that, and wait for him or somebody else to find something they didn't pull out of the ass :P

[Deleted]

The talent requires a lot more out of the player, of course it should give an increase in DPS big enough to motivate picking it over something passive.

This is blatantly wrong (see below).

Would be better with the talents on the first kill, and not when they get ranked.
Even so i don't see the problem of one talent being obviously better for dps, just as several other classes have. After all you give up on other things, and to compare with top 50 mans isn't really going to show anything for most people, since it's another league.

Changing talents and even entire specs is much easier for other classes though (mages, warlocks, rogues) because DoC has the legacy of having a stigma for being "difficult" to play, when it's actually the base rotation with bleed-heavy trinket which is the difficult part. DoC just gets the blame because it was the "I'm healing during dps?" talent since 5.0 launched and people just don't have HT on their bars for it (and refuse to it there). I'm not saying this is the main culprit but it is what I've observed and noticed as the biggest wow-factor when trying to teach someone how to play feral.

TL;DR: If you can play feral at a high level (ie. properly managing bleeds) then changing HotW for DoC is going to have minimal impact on your playstyle (ie. doesn't make it any harder than, say, changing trinkets). On the other hand, if your skill-level is somewhat mid-range, then it probably doesn't matter what T6 talent you use, HotW will look good on paper but you will hardly capitalize on your strong bleeds. NV might be a stable choice since you can macro it to either TF/zerk.

[Deleted]

So for someone playing his 2nd alt in occasional alt runs, it's perfectly fine to run with HotW and learn the basic ropes properly, instead of starting to weave in DoC already?

I had imagines the DPS loss from going HoTW instead of DoC was fairly large.

[Deleted]

So for someone playing his 2nd alt in occasional alt runs, it's perfectly fine to run with HotW and learn the basic ropes properly, instead of starting to weave in DoC already?

I had imagines the DPS loss from going HoTW instead of DoC was fairly large.

It is so small that having a 4-second lag spike on the pull will have a larger impact. But again, your answer implies the stigma which I warned about. DoC isn't hard to play. The difficulty is a property of the feral spec. Once you can play feral, you can play either T6 talent. However, even if you can't play feral well yet there's still no difference between DoC and HotW as far as dps output goes (unless you raid a LOT). Yes, with HotW you can ignore the T6 talent and just focus on your rotation. Or you could take DoC and sometimes use it to boost some bleed or the other. Taking a talent and then using it is how 99% (haha) of the talents work. If it's passive, good for you, if it's active, do something with it. I see no mages complaining about having to use mage bombs. Why is it an issue to use DoC?

[mmokri]

The only reason HOTW sucks - its own active. It was nerfed under ground at 5.0.

[Deleted]

The only reason HOTW sucks - its own active. It was nerfed under ground at 5.0.

The balance active part was considering game-breaking since it gave ridiculous burst while ignoring most fight mechanics (100% miss chance on epicenter, ranged-only periods for melee) but it was at the same time very clutch because it required you to stand still and just spam a button. The second problem with it pre-nerf was that the main design decision between HotW and DoC was the choice between slightly higher dps or more utility. Having the active-part be used basically on-CD negated that aspect by making HotW unavailable when utility was required (and being a 6min CD made it near-impossible to plan for).

[Deleted]

I see no mages complaining about having to use mage bombs. Why is it an issue to use DoC?

That's a rather suspicious comparison though. You just refresh your Mage bomb when it runs out. DoC alters your rotation slightly by weaving it in on 2 conditions (if I'm not mistaken): at 4CP and/or when your Predatory Swiftness is about to run out. There's probably even more to it than just these 2 standard conditions.

I do agree it's largely perceived complexity, in part fueled by the Feral community itself who have propped up their own favourite spec immensely. I think treating it as if it's an on use trinket works to downplay that perception a bit.

Gonna keep on learning my Feral alt with DoC then. The playstyle is just too much fun.

[felcommander]

Doc even when use perfectly is still at most ~3% dps increase. Which isn't bad its about 10k more damage in top end gear, however you also have to consider the trade offs.

There's quite a few fights in 10 man where hotw is amazing simply for the tranq and healing that a druid could put out for a short period of time.

As for WOL rankings they simply aren't accurate for assessing how often people are using a certain talent, the main issue is most people in the top 25 or so are trying to get a WOL ranking, so they get things like tricks, don't do the mechanics, ect, just to get on WOL, which in turn skews the results of what talents people are actually using.

[Deleted]

As for WOL rankings they simply aren't accurate for assessing how often people are using a certain talent, the main issue is most people in the top 25 or so are trying to get a WOL ranking, so they get things like tricks, don't do the mechanics, ect, just to get on WOL, which in turn skews the results of what talents people are actually using.

Pretty much this.

[mmokri]

@felcommander - its not 3%. Rip + Execute + DoC + potion + rune + trinket proc + tricks + tiger's fury = WoL explosion.

[Deleted]

@felcommander - its not 3%. Rip + Execute + DoC + potion + rune + trinket proc = WoL explosion.

Is not so much different than Rip + Execute + potion + rune + trinket proc.

[mmokri]

According to Simcraft 'damage per execution' its 30-%.

[Deleted]

@felcommander - its not 3%. Rip + Execute + DoC + potion + rune + trinket proc = WoL explosion.

This is true. The only way to rank good is to get a superstacked Rip that lasts the whole 25% in the end. All the little micro optimizations you do before that gets completely overshadowed by the RNG in trinket procs. I am quite annoyed by this actually.

For example, here is the BitW phase of my rank 1 thok normal kill. Look at the Rip damage. I didn't get the double trinket proc until the middle of the phase and by then my pot was already over.: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/mfim4...=10178&e=10235

No procs I would have lost ~ 40k dps. Better timing with the procs and I could have gained maybe 20k more. Completely out of my hand. The RNG in trinket procs determine much more of your damage than if you go Treants or DoC or anything. Quite sad.

[Deleted]

This is true. The only way to rank good is to get a superstacked Rip that lasts the whole 25% in the end. All the little micro optimizations you do before that gets completely overshadowed by the RNG in trinket procs. I am quite annoyed by this actually.

For example, here is the BitW phase of my rank 1 thok normal kill. Look at the Rip damage. I didn't get the double trinket proc until the middle of the phase and by then my pot was already over.: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/mfim4...=10178&e=10235

No procs I would have lost ~ 40k dps. Better timing with the procs and I could have gained maybe 20k more. Completely out of my hand. The RNG in trinket procs determine much more of your damage than if you go Treants or DoC or anything. Quite sad.

Raid Progression doesn't care about 5+ ranks though. Rip execute ranks are a side-effect of how WoL operates and not so much an indicator of good or bad performance at the mercy of either DoC or HotW.