Why don't you raid normal/heroic?

[nekobaka]

I hate to break it to you but, "Oooh! LFR is so awesome that I'm going to forego Normal raiding to devote more time to it," said no one ever. What is it about LFR that players found so appealing? Was it the trolls who initiate those wipes? Was it the subpar loot? Was it the reduced loot rates? What is so appealing about LFR that drew the masses who previously lined up to raid with you away? If you found more engaging games to play then I'm happy for you, but put the blame where it belongs. LFR didn't kill raiding for you. The massive jump in raid difficulty did that.

Perhaps I should have added more detail that PuG raiding took a dive in 4.3 despite DS being easier than FL. You seem like you are on some righteous crusade and in a need to shove your opinion in other players face as if you are some all seeing god that speaks for all players. I find LFR to be far more stressful than running a PuG raid in Cata. The current LFR queue and clear times are longer than it was for me to run a PuG raid which is also a turn off to go from 1.5 hours a week of PuG raiding to about the 10 hours a week by LFR. Now if I wanted to comit myself to a guild then I would be doing normal mode raiding again and it would be my choice. The increased difficulty of normals going into MoP was the result of having LFR as a fallback. If there was no LFR then the developers would have not had that fall back thinking that any players who couldnt cut normals would be happy with LFR. The introduction of Flex shows that Blizzards choice to bump the difficulty was a mistake.

[Ronduwil]

Perhaps I should have added more detail that PuG raiding took a dive in 4.3 despite DS being easier than FL.

That was not my experience, but maybe that's what happened on your server.

You seem like you are on some righteous crusade and in a need to shove your opinion in other players face as if you are some all seeing god that speaks for all players.

No, but I am sick of seeing players blame LFR for everything under the sun when the only genuine offense it has committed is to distribute supbar loot to a group of players that traditionally didn't raid before.

I find LFR to be far more stressful than running a PuG raid in Cata.

So did I, and that's why your claim that LFR killed PuG raiding on your server doesn't make any sense to me.

The current LFR queue and clear times are longer than it was for me to run a PuG raid which is also a turn off to go from 1.5 hours a week of PuG raiding to about the 10 hours a week by LFR.

Then what's stopping you from PuG raiding now?

The increased difficulty of normals going into MoP was the result of having LFR as a fallback. If there was no LFR then the developers would have not had that fall back. The introduction of Flex just shows how much the developers screwed up with that move.

So you're basically saying that the increased difficulty of normals going into MoP has killed pugging in MoP for you. I believe that's what I said too. I also agree that LFR is the excuse they use for that. Flex is basically what normal used to be. We now have 4 levels of raiding: Intro, Normal, Heroic, and Heoric+. Except they call them Raid Finder, Flexible Raiding, Normal, and Heroic. I wouldn't get too hung up on the labels.

[Karasuko]

A mutated version of Option 2.
I really dislike the 4 modes of difficulty and would prefer a return to linear progression.

[nekobaka]

snip

I could spend hours documenting observed changes and thoughts behind them along with their influence on me. I would rather not as I got a friends bday to celebrate later tonight.

Blizzard has said it themselves and many of us know as well that humans are inherently lazy and each person has different weights on the pros and cons of features and what is worth it along with the appeal of something new. The ability to click a button and have the game form a group for you is a very strong appeal for a number of players and even when players have the option to choose their own group would rather risk dealing with a random queue group. GC has even mentioned that if "heroic" five mans come back that the random queue option would not be available and pointed towards heroic scenarios doing well with low complaints because of the lack of the random queue feature. The random queue feature also can replace lost players far more easily than a hand made PuG and overall offers a more sure way to get stuff cleared without having to deal with the player element that some players dont like. The LFR of DS is different than the LFRs of MoP as is many other aspects of MoP compared to Cata.

With a lowering subscriber base I am not too fond of ever increasing levels of granularity on what is supposed to be one of the big group(raids) based time sinks of the end game as it ends up further separating the playerbase and friends. I also place game play over story and would not have had a problem if raiding was out of my reach as long as there was engaging alternatives which Cata had while MoP doesnt for me. I have a healer and having engaging holy-trinity group based content is something I want. I have also had friends leave from lack of five mans to late night guilds being far more volatile than in Cata and LFR didnt cut it for them as well. LFR had a large impact on the game and there was pros and cons to it and I found myself on the negatively impacted side. LFD made dungeons far more convenient particularly for low population realms with one of the trade offs being the rapid acceleration of content consumption and burn out making them far less cost effective and promoting the need for a more long term and slow to consume form of content. Those who liked five mans eventually got screwed over by the system that was there to help them.

At the end of it I was only putting in about five hours a week in Cata and MoP and the increase randomness of being able to find or form my own group after 4.3 hit was not worth the effort anymore. Perhaps if Flex came in earlier I would have not become detached from the game.

[Pancaspe]

Because I have raided Since Molten Core and doing Flex on OpenRaid when I feel like it scratches the Raid itch for me just fine.

[Conno]

i moved countries, so my guilds raiding time of 10pm-2am is 1pm-5pm for me, and that's not going to work for me. at the same time i won't be finding a new guild as these guys and i have been together 5 years. so that's that.

[Xires]

I've got the "Hand of A'dal" title and the bear mount from 10 man ZA...back in those days I had the time to be apart of a heroic semi-HC raiding guild that raided 5 nights a week. Now I'm older and life is different. I dont want my life to revolve around this game anymore...in the long run when I look back at all those countless hours wiping on heroic progression or back in TBC simply "progression".... Spending 6 weeks straight 5 nights a week until we finally got our 1st Kaelthas kill (1 shot him the next week =D)was just straight up stressful....people getting SUPER pissed over mistakes by others or the stress of being an officer and even raid leading...it took up a LOT of my time...and what did I have to show for it? A title that most people don't even know about or even care about anymore.....an exclusive mount that you cant get anymore and actually had to have skill to get....which peeps dont even care about anymore....all that time and effort you put into that 1 x-pac....becomes obsolete and/or forgotten the next x-pac.....and all that time your youth and life is just passing you by......screw that. I use oque to flex raid and i'm happy with it...as I can raid on my schedule and it is a "light" form of raiding yet still feels like a raid unlike LFR...now I still do LFR simply because in the early stages I can still get upgrades from there...but....really...normal and heroics tend to require a set schedule...a schedule...that I simply just dont want to have to deal with anymore....even if its just for 1 or 2 nights. So no...I dont and I wont do anything that revolves around a set schedule and unless there happens to be a normal SoO going on in oQue.... I wont even bother with that difficulty either.

[gee]

Why would I hamper myself when everyone else is taking the easy way out and seeing content/getting gear through LFR?

There is not sufficient advantage to running normals/heroics. The iLevel differential is too small and the gear looks and is named exactly the same as LFR gear.

Players are forced to do LFR and that's what they do.

Blizzard wants people to run LFR. All their gameplay/content decisions are a slap in the face to any old-school raider and a big hug to casuals.

Why bother? Why try to raid against the developer's intentions? Why try to raid despite the devs' anti-raid stance? Why be anything but a casual?

[Tomservo]

i have all the time in the world to commit to a raid schedule, i simply choose not to since i don't give that much of a care.

[DeadnightWarrior]

Would love to raid heroic, but had to quit raiding when I started working at sea. Noone wants anyone who's away 4 weeks at a time.

[Cephilia]

My raid leader is a damned slacker who has been raiding with another group for months because "we don't have enough players". Found him a full group of ready to go raiders in a week; I hope he's finally starting to get his motivation back.

[Normie]

Then why on earth are you playing an MMO ?

The purpose of an MMO isn't solely to interact with strangers on the internet.

[ablib]

Simple Thread - Why don't you raid the harder difficulties?

Recently, a point has been raised that the most casual form of raiding (LFR) takes the longest to complete when compared against flexible and normal. A structured group can clear the other easier difficulties in a much quicker time frame reaping far greater rewards.

So, why don't you partake in structured raiding?

Can you not commit to any form of schedule, be it a small commitment or large?
Are you not interested in the harder difficulties in a game?
Can you not find other players to raid with?
Are you afraid of, or personally not good enough to participate in the harder difficulties?
Do the rewards, and the prospect of a stronger character not interest you?



This thread may not be applicable to you, but feel free to discuss.

I can't commit to a schedule in a video game. My schedule in real life is hectic enough, but that's why real life > video game.

[Bigbamboozal]

I'm up every day at 0530 and finish work at 1600. I do enough work without having to comit to a full time raiding guild.

Sounds like you might be in a raiding guild irl

OT: time, and disinterest in raiding with the one asshat who always thinks everyone is shit and he's awesome, no he's not an elitist, he just THINKS he is.
Seriously, if i have to listen to one more pisshead try to have a go at me b/c I haven't got such and such yet...fuck, like I can make it drop if it just doesn't.
Yah okay buddy, let me get out my i win dice that forces the loot table to drop the upgrade that pisshead seems to think I should already have or leave the raid.
(true story, and no I was not in blues or greens, nor was it impacting my performance, this asshole picked someone new every week, and since it just wouldn't drop, I was his fav for 2 weeks until I put him on ignore...this person, was an officer.)
Who needs it? Not I.
I wonder if he bitches at the lack of tanks while always being on their case still, while playing a toon that could tank, while not tanking?
At any rate, he caused more wipes then most people.
Just left me with a bad taste for hardmodes, having to deal with the attitude cases.
The actual hardmode raiding is fun.

- - - Updated - - -

I have severe social anxiety. (Like, seriously. I'm medicated for it, and it's a daily, horrible struggle.) But it's okay! I quit a few weeks before 5.4 anyways, shortly after the only two friends I had playing WoW still had also left the game after a long time assumption we would wind up doing arena and scenarios and whatnot, only to have them sort of just stop playing :x

I've always wanted to, though, I just found everyone I encountered that may of led to that possibility extremely offputting, and never tried because of that.

Look at several people in these forums as is, like that judgementofantonidas fellow. I mean, I know he doesn't represent raiding as a whole, but the general thought of it puts me into a panic attack mode and makes me want to throw the game out of a window. I know there's good people out there that wouldn't make my life a living hell, I just rarely ever saw them.

Keep your chin up, I'm pulling for you

[CecilHarvey]

I have a multitude of reasons.

I started playing this game in 2004. 20 years old. I'm 29 now. I'm a Salaried Systems Admin that's married and has a family.

I had a majority of the "elite" titles in previous expansions -- Firelord, 15% Madness/Spine, Four Winds, etc. etc. Up until end of Cata I always have been a high parsing, ranking Ret Paladin for many years and I have never had an issue with my ability to play this game or optimize my toon.

Basically, it boils down to the fact I have to be at the top of the progression chain or nothing. I feel as I'm not accomplishing what I want if I can't clear the Heroic content, and clearing that content at a level of a full Heroic clear while relevant requires more than 2 nights/6 hours a week. So I quit, because:

A) I can't do more than 2 nights/6 hours a week
B) Because of A, I'm not going to get the fufillment I want to out of the game, personally. And even then, it becomes a pain in the ass to be permanently obligated to be glued to your chair for 3 hours at times.

This, on top of the fact I'm on call alot of times for a 24/7 environment -- just makes me a pain in the ass to deal with logistically for alot of guilds.

If the game suddenly found some resolution to make it easier to accomplish this in a smaller frame of time while keeping the skill ceiling needed involved, I'd be all over it as I love raiding in this game. I know that's not likely to happen though.

[Deleted]

I don't know if thats really that miserable a way to live life. Would you say it was 'miserable' if you said 'I hope this raid ends by 8, so I can make my daughter's concert on time' ?

Yes. You should make your daughter's concert on time regardless of what's happening in a video game. Even considering otherwise makes you sound like some sort of deranged poopsock monster.

[Hotsforyou]

Then why on earth are you playing an MMO ?

My question exactly. I consider my Internet friends that i have been playing with since Vanilla better friends than most of the people i know IRL. That is the whole point of an MMO, to get to know and play with others. Sole reason i hate LFR/LFG/Que system is because of what it did to the community in the game.

Yes. You should make your daughter's concert on time regardless of what's happening in a video game. Even considering otherwise makes you sound like some sort of deranged poopsock monster.

This is why we raid at 9PM my time in our guild. My boss is my GM, and we both have a wive and kids. Once they have gone to bed we log on and slay internet dragons with our raid team 3 nights a week and the wives are cool with it.

[ablib]

I have a multitude of reasons.

I started playing this game in 2004. 20 years old. I'm 29 now. I'm a Salaried Systems Admin that's married and has a family.

I had a majority of the "elite" titles in previous expansions -- Firelord, 15% Madness/Spine, Four Winds, etc. etc. Up until end of Cata I always have been a high parsing, ranking Ret Paladin for many years and I have never had an issue with my ability to play this game or optimize my toon.

Basically, it boils down to the fact I have to be at the top of the progression chain or nothing. I feel as I'm not accomplishing what I want if I can't clear the Heroic content, and clearing that content at a level of a full Heroic clear while relevant requires more than 2 nights/6 hours a week. So I quit, because:

A) I can't do more than 2 nights/6 hours a week
B) Because of A, I'm not going to get the fufillment I want to out of the game, personally. And even then, it becomes a pain in the ass to be permanently obligated to be glued to your chair for 3 hours at times.

This, on top of the fact I'm on call alot of times for a 24/7 environment -- just makes me a pain in the ass to deal with logistically for alot of guilds.

If the game suddenly found some resolution to make it easier to accomplish this in a smaller frame of time while keeping the skill ceiling needed involved, I'd be all over it as I love raiding in this game. I know that's not likely to happen though.

This is almost my same exact situation, except I settled for LFR.

I grew up, have a family which is a 24/7 job that is more important than WoW. I'm also a salaried systems admin that at any time can get a call that I need to remote in for. I raided a few times and got the call, then decided that I just can't expect the guild to wait while I take care of an issue.

[Ronduwil]

This is why we raid at 9PM my time in our guild. My boss is my GM, and we both have a wive and kids. Once they have gone to bed we log on and slay internet dragons with our raid team 3 nights a week and the wives are cool with it.

Your boss is your GM. Most of our bosses are not so understanding when we drag our asses into work and put in a subpar performance by virtue of the 6- hrs of sleep we got the night before.

[Louis CK]

Your boss is your GM. Most of our bosses are not so understanding when we drag your asses into work and put in a subpar performance by virtue of the 6- hrs of sleep we got the night before.

That's not a matter of whether or not you choose to raid, that's a matter of being irresponsible. Don't get the two mixed up.

If you cannot find a time to raid that does not negatively impact the rest of your life, then you probably shouldn't be raiding.

There are plenty of solid, progressive guilds that start raids right after dinner time and end right around "bed time" for the working adult. Most of them, actually. That's why it was so hard for me to find a solid guild in the past. I worked 8-5 one week, then 12-9 the next, alternating. Most guilds raid during the week within the hours listed. I finally found a guild raiding weekends, and it was perfect for me, because my daughters were in bed, and some of us choose to enjoy time at home instead of out at the bars, etc.