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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    You say that the only way to teach people is to kick them. This is not true at all... apart from kicking, you have chatting, you have being an example, you have even voip options. It may be that you dont wish to go through all that trouble... but there are many ways in which you can teach something to a wow player.

    And for clarity, what the OP said ("Do you seriously not have any weapon equiped at all? seriously") is not a true teaching statement, even though it is possible to learn from its implication. However, the remark is stated in an attacking way, and thus it is very possible that the teaching message got lost behind the defensive stance this player put on. Just consider for yourself how you would respond to the above question, and then to the remark "Hey, I see you dont have a weapon equipped. If you equip a weapon, you will perform better." Generally to take advice people have to be open to it; being defensive negates the effect. If you truly want to teach, it requires you to take a teaching attitude, not an attacking/insulting one.

    Re the last quote: There is no way to prevent slacking, except by organised teamforming. Make your own team, set your own norms. You will find that slacking is a very subjective term that everyone deals differently with.
    Are you for real? The 99 people you run across that don't slack are a decent example. Yet that one dude chooses to slack despite all the good exmaples he comes up against.
    VOIP? In a dungeon? If you don't get told to fuck off most people don't have VOIP and if they do it will take longer to set up than to run the dungeon.

    In the limited timeframe of interaction you have with people you can offer the stick, not the carrot. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pleasant interaction in a dungeon but most times no matter how neutrally you frame advice the response will be the middle finger. So forgive me for not minding the kick system, I've had enough instances where I've offered advice like "hey you should really use SoI for tanking, it does great heals and isn't a dps loss". The response? "Fuck off, lol noob"

  2. #42
    Brewmaster Outofmana's Avatar
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    The priest probably used the trick : Started a Votekick on you but typed is OWN name in the box, everyone thinks they are kicking the priest on first glance and press yes. CY@~

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    First of all, it was a level 35 dungeon. Who really cares if one person wasn't pulling their weight? Second, you were kicked because you raised a concern. Usually in any kind of dungeon, the people who voice a concern, even a valid one (as in your case) is removed because people don't want to deal with somebody making a big deal. Let me play devil's advocate: In this level 35 dungeon what did it matter if this priest wasn't even trying? Did it impact you from completing the dungeon? You said yourself that your tank friend died because he pulled too much, not because there was some DPS check (which there aren't in any level 35 dungeon) that wasn't met because you were basically 4-manning it. So what, other than to call out a bad player, was your reasoning for trying to kick the priest? Would you have been able to complete the dungeon without him?

    It happens, there's no cure for it because of how people are. Chalk it up to the typical bad LFG experience and move on.
    Trying to justify the actions of the priest in this situation baffles me .

  4. #44
    You say that the only way to teach people is to kick them. This is not true at all... apart from kicking, you have chatting, you have being an example, you have even voip options. It may be that you dont wish to go through all that trouble... but there are many ways in which you can teach something to a wow player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Are you for real? The 99 people you run across that don't slack are a decent example. Yet that one dude chooses to slack despite all the good exmaples he comes up against.
    VOIP? In a dungeon? If you don't get told to fuck off most people don't have VOIP and if they do it will take longer to set up than to run the dungeon.

    In the limited timeframe of interaction you have with people you can offer the stick, not the carrot. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pleasant interaction in a dungeon but most times no matter how neutrally you frame advice the response will be the middle finger. So forgive me for not minding the kick system, I've had enough instances where I've offered advice like "hey you should really use SoI for tanking, it does great heals and isn't a dps loss". The response? "Fuck off, lol noob"
    For kicks I highlighted what is imo relevant to your complaint. Just because I tell how true education would work, does not mean I always do it... I rarely do except for guildies; see my earlier posts. I just point out that there *are* ways to educate beyond the ambiguous message kicking gives. Despite what is claimed above (and by you?) kicking rarely gives the message you hope/think/wish it does. It just removes a someone from your party, which is exactly why I use it.

    I rarely get 'the middle finger'; I have had quite some positive responses. But *if* I get a negative vibe from a player, I immediately either try to kick or leave. This rarely happens though.

  5. #45
    The Patient Cantwingrr's Avatar
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    For some added information here, the priest I'm talking about in this conversation had several pieces of heirloom gear equiped. They knew very well that they could have contributed if they felt like it. Didn't notice this until very shortly before I got kicked.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignotum View Post
    Trying to justify the actions of the priest in this situation baffles me .
    I'm not trying to justify the actions, I'm stating that at that level of content does it really matter? There are always people like that who want to get carried through things without effort, in a meaningful raid or content I could see taking a major issue with it but at a level where that person's performance literally has no bearing on the outcome it's not some big deal. Was the priest wrong? Yes, of course they were, but is it really worth getting upset about?

  7. #47
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    When solo in LFD, seeing 3 or 4 others of the group from the same realm or same guild sends off alarm bells in my mind. It will either be great or end poorly.

    1. Its a pro group grinding out LFR and everything is fast and efficient. I just do my part and be polite as i can.

    2. Its a mostly pro group carrying their idiot cousin or girlfriend. DO NOT comment on the one bad player. Their friends will take offense. They will use their majority to kick you. To them, closing ranks is more important than overall efficiency. I just keep my head down and suck it up. Its their responsibility to "teach" this person. Not mine.

    3. Its a group of 12-year-old mean girls. They're more interested in "entertaining" themselves than grinding out a LFD. "Entertainment" really means grieffing the one or two randoms that lucked into their group. They start off outrageous chat, really just provoking each other and the poor random person that tries to be polite. They all roll need on everything to hoard loot, etc.
    I just afk, let them carry me or votekick me. Just walk away.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm not trying to justify the actions, I'm stating that at that level of content does it really matter? There are always people like that who want to get carried through things without effort, in a meaningful raid or content I could see taking a major issue with it but at a level where that person's performance literally has no bearing on the outcome it's not some big deal. Was the priest wrong? Yes, of course they were, but is it really worth getting upset about?
    I would expect a mod -of all people - to see the value in correcting poor behavior, specifically using a stick instead of a carrot, to just letting something slide. I've been on both sides of this argument, being kicked and kicking someone else, and once I realized how quickly people vote to kick over even their misconception of me slacking or irritating, I decided to shape up and have no remorse when teaching others.

  9. #49
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm not trying to justify the actions, I'm stating that at that level of content does it really matter? There are always people like that who want to get carried through things without effort, in a meaningful raid or content I could see taking a major issue with it but at a level where that person's performance literally has no bearing on the outcome it's not some big deal. Was the priest wrong? Yes, of course they were, but is it really worth getting upset about?
    Yes, because as we've said to you several times already, tolerating this is what leads to LFR AKFers and 30k DPSers. Of course, you ignored that.

    incidentally, I certainly hope you never hand out infractions here. I mean, does one bad comment really matter? Is it really worth getting upset about? *cough*

  10. #50
    Another reason to remove LFR/LFg

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer
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    I really do dislike this when leveling one of my alts with my friend casually, that you cannot kick a player for x amount of time in dungeons and they just afk etc, really annoying system.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Yes, because as we've said to you several times already, tolerating this is what leads to LFR AKFers and 30k DPSers. Of course, you ignored that.

    incidentally, I certainly hope you never hand out infractions here. I mean, does one bad comment really matter? Is it really worth getting upset about? *cough*
    LFD is very doable with 2-3 reasonable players. Several LFR fights are not doable right now with any underperforming players. Thus, I ignore such in LFD and kick them in LFR. Logical .

  13. #53
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    LFD is very doable with 2-3 reasonable players. Several LFR fights are not doable right now with any underperforming players. Thus, I ignore such in LFD and kick them in LFR. Logical .
    And guess one reason you get crap players in LFR? Because you and others let them be crap as they level with no penalty.

  14. #54
    You let a tank die in a level 35 instance i would kick you to.

  15. #55
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm not trying to justify the actions, I'm stating that at that level of content does it really matter?
    Bad behavior of this sort matters, yes. This is someone who possibly AFK's through LFR. If they have heirlooms and the rest they should know better. You can apply exactly the same logic there: "It's only LFR and it's designed to have a few people slacking." It's something that Blizzard needs to take a serious look at. I have no idea how to fix it but I do know that removing content so that it doesn't happen isn't the answer. Just as it's a stupid idea to remove low-level dungeons to stop this from happening, it's just as stupid to remove stuff from end game for the same reason.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-10-30 at 12:14 AM.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  16. #56
    The Forgettable Forgettable's Avatar
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    Seriously, why do people get "kick protection" after being kicked multiple times? This just proves they are either a toxic or bad player. They should get a "kick vulnerability" if anything. It's so flawed.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post

    How often though are your hands tied by the kick protection system when you NEED to kick a bad/afk player to finish a dungeon or LFR? In LFR especially, at least half the players who need to be kicked have some kind of protection, either via your own personal kick timer or their "can't be kicked" timer. What exactly does the kick protection *teach* these players? That it's okay to AFK your way to free loot? That it's okay to play like an imbecile, die on every boss, do half the acceptable DPS for your gear level? I don't understand why people like this deserve Blizzard's protection. We should teach them that this isn't acceptable behavior. You do that by kicking them and punishing them.
    This is sanctimonious horseshit and here's why.

    1) it is not your responsibility nor right to "teach" anyone. If you want to offer constructive advice, fine. If you want to play god and make everyone miserable, it's not.

    2) you have no idea who the *real* person is on the other end of your vitriol. Is it a new player who is honestly trying? Is it a young person? Is it someone with a learning disability? That's right, you *don't* know the answer to any of these questions. But, rest assured, there is a real person being targeted by your venom. A person who may indeed be incapable of playing better.

    3) for whatever reason the person is not playing how *you* think they should, they are either willing to put up with your venom or not. If you do not have a majority of people agreeing with you, then move on. Be quiet. Or form your own premade group which your fragile ego may be better suited to function within.

    It's that simple.
    Last edited by dusselldorf; 2013-10-30 at 12:21 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by dusselldorf View Post
    for whatever reason the person is not playing how *you* think they should
    Let all the jerks play together, and not with me.

    Then everyone can play the way they want to.

  19. #59
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Yes, because as we've said to you several times already, tolerating this is what leads to LFR AKFers and 30k DPSers. Of course, you ignored that.

    incidentally, I certainly hope you never hand out infractions here. I mean, does one bad comment really matter? Is it really worth getting upset about? *cough*
    This is the whole point of why several of us are annoyed by the approach some of you have tbh. If you accept the poor performance of players at low level, ignore that they are leeching, ignore that they are doing 15k dps as lvl 90, ignore that they afk, then you have no right to complain when you meet them in LFR at lvl 90, where they wipe you doing 30k dps, standing in fire, akf'ing or queuing as tank in PvP gear.

    It's rather simple really.

    @Leonora: Some players in LFR do actually have a kick protection. I've had players that nobody could kick, where everyone got the same message when trying "player can not be kicked for 3 hours" or w/e crap message.

    It's not about whether or not lowbie dungeons can be completed or not with one leech/bad, we all know they can. What really baffles me, is that some of you almost makes it sound like the rest of us are in the wrong for trying to improve the community by setting some standards.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dusselldorf View Post
    This is sanctimonious horseshit and here's why.

    1) it is not your responsibility nor right to "teach" anyone. If you want to offer constructive advice, fine. If you want to play god and make everyone miserable, it's not.

    2) you have no idea who the *real* person is on the other end of your vitriol. Is it a new player who is honestly trying? Is it a young person? Is it someone with a learning disability? That's right, you *don't* know the answer to any of these questions. But, rest assured, there is a real person being targeted by your venom. A person who may indeed be incapable of playing better.

    3) for whatever reason the person is not playing how *you* think they should, they are either willing to put up with your venom or not. If you do not have a majority of people agreeing with you, then move on. Be quiet. Or form your own premade group which your fragile ego may be better suited to function within.

    It's that simple.
    1) It's not my responsibility no, but as a community you take on some responsibility to make the game a better experience overall - it's an MMO after all. How is the OP playing God in any way? How was he making everyone miserable by asking, why the dude didn't have a weapon equipped?

    2) "Young", there's a limit to how young the player can be, since the game is PG 13 right? (Think it's PG 13). How does having a disability affects your ability to equip a weapon. If the dude knows enough about the game to have grinded Heirloom gear, I highly doubt he doesn't know, that ofc he needs a weapon - I call BS. How is the OP "targeting the dude with venom" rofl?? Stop playing the disability card already, it's just pathetic.

    3) The dude was not playing, the way the game is intended to be played - with a weapon equipped. We're not talking about the OP demanding X amount of dps, we're talking about the OP asking why Mr. baddie didn't even have a weapon equipped and why Mr. Baddie was afk - big difference.
    Last edited by mmoc3a262a3a21; 2013-10-30 at 02:28 AM.

  20. #60
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by dusselldorf View Post
    This is sanctimonious horseshit and here's why.

    1) it is not your responsibility nor right to "teach" anyone. If you want to offer constructive advice, fine. If you want to play god and make everyone miserable, it's not.

    2) you have no idea who the *real* person is on the other end of your vitriol. Is it a new player who is honestly trying? Is it a young person? Is it someone with a learning disability? That's right, you *don't* know the answer to any of these questions. But, rest assured, there is a real person being targeted by your venom. A person who may indeed be incapable of playing better.

    3) for whatever reason the person is not playing how *you* think they should, they are either willing to put up with your venom or not. If you do not have a majority of people agreeing with you, then move on. Be quiet. Or form your own premade group which your fragile ego may be better suited to function within.

    It's that simple.
    1, yes, i offer nicely put constructive criticism. Problem is the player who *insists* he is doing fine when he is actually being carried. Worth of zero time and kick protection allows their style of ruining the game for rest.
    2, New players are fine when they are learning, we all did once. Venom is reserved for those who continuously fails at their role and doesn't have brain to learn when repeatedly told and showed how to.
    3, Thing is, theres no *me* saying how they should play. There are things called game mechanics and beating those will need a certain amount of DPS amongst other values. The game tells us how much you need to do to survive a boss encounter. Those who keep failing at this are beyond any help or simply slackers who want to carried.

    The ones who get angry when someone advices their wrong way to play, those have the fragile egos. Those think they are the hottest shit and best of best when their humongous ego gets on the way of accepting help. Want to get ready for raiding? Listen what others say and read, read, read some more and improve yourself!

    I would be happy to help a new guy in the game and i have helped few in the past. Those idiots who can't play and insults when offering help are worth zero time and should just fuck off, making the game better for all of us.

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