To people whom want LFR removed: What endgame do you propose for the casual players?

[Ronduwil]

Since you're not raiding, take the time to study your class during your offline time and learn to play.

Most people who want to spend their offline time studying are studying to get better at their school work or at their job. Just because you want to treat the game like a job and "study" for it when you're not playing doesn't mean everyone should be forced to do so. WoW is a recreational activity, not a career.

[Ecwfrk]

You obviously are a wrath baby

A "wrath baby" as you idiots like to call them have been playing WoW now for 5 years. Longer than you were playing when Wrath came out.

because we (the casuals) never got sick of them because there were so many and they were challenging enough to sate our PvE endgame.

What a crock! The casual player's dungeon endgame was spamming "LF Strat group" in /lfg for 4 hours. Casuals never got sick of the dungeons because they never got to see them.

Not to mention, alot of the gear back then was much closer power-wise (aka ilvl) than now.

Another crock. The difference between Tier 0.5 and T3 in Vanilla or DS3 and T6 was no smaller than the difference between 502 and 570 is now. If anything it was even more pronounced.

Just because YOU don't want LFR gone doesn't mean it should stay.

No, it should stay because many, many people have put forth numerous valid reasons why it should while no one has put forth any valid (or even coherent) reason that it shouldn't.

[pallyopness]

Most people who want to spend their offline time studying are studying to get better at their school work or at their job. Just because you want to treat the game like a job and "study" for it when you're not playing doesn't mean everyone should be forced to do so. WoW is a recreational activity, not a career.

well for a hobby some like to cook....you still need to research how right? how about rebuilding engines as a hobby? still need to learn how...how about knitting? still need to learn....the list goes on and on thus your point is somewhat invalid

[DeadmanWalking]

well for a hobby some like to cook....you still need to research how right? how about rebuilding engines as a hobby? still need to learn how...how about knitting? still need to learn....the list goes on and on thus your point is somewhat invalid

You can learn to cook by experimenting and you can learn to rebuild engines just by tearing one apart. If they required studying then none of these skills would be learned by a majority of the worlds citizens who still need stickers to understand that you should not mow your lawn with your baby crawling around in the high grass.

[pallyopness]

You can learn to cook by experimenting and you can learn to rebuild engines just by tearing one apart. If they required studying then none of these skills would be learned by a majority of the worlds citizens who still need stickers to understand that you should not mow your lawn with your baby crawling around in the high grass.

ok so let me clear it up then as you hit a point.....ANYONE can raid (lfr) but if you want to do it better you must research. That goes with ANY hobby. Sure you can cook by experimenting but those that train and research techniques and ingredients and what not do it better. Its the same. If you don't want to get better don't expect to get the same results as those that actually try to get better and excel at their hobbies....ie raiding.

You only can achieve goals of which you put forth the effort in any case of a hobby. Put forth little effort then your hobby is not done as well as someone who does the same hobby but takes more time to perfect it. Some are fine building go-karts...others desire building race cars.

[Ronduwil]

well for a hobby some like to cook....you still need to research how right?

Not really. Most of us know how to use knives and forks, how to measure out flour, how to pour, and how to use appliances. We've grown up learning to do that stuff because you typically have to cook to eat unless you're following some oddball diet. When I want to try out a new recipe I don't need to spend 45 minutes watching videos and reading strat guides so that I can teach nine other people how to help me barbeque ribs. I just follow the directions and get it done with no prep beyond what that recipe demands. Over time I will find ways to improve and/or expedite steps in the recipe, but that's done "on the job" and not through study.

how about rebuilding engines as a hobby? still need to learn how...

Long before you've taken up that hobby you've already learned to work with the tools required. From then it's just like cooking. You grab the manual, see what needs to go where, and just do it. No need for extensive preparation, and no need to find nine other guys to help you build your engine.

how about knitting? still need to learn....the list goes on and on thus your point is somewhat invalid

I learned how to cross stitch in third grade. My 11-year-old daughter is learning to knit. It doesn't require study. Someone shows you what to do and you just do it. The process of knitting itself is absolutely trivial.

These examples you gave are the equivalent of saying you need to know how to press buttons to play WoW, and I'm pretty sure that all of us have at least that much competence. The suggestion that we need to "study" to "learn to play" has far larger implications than the examples you gave. Each raid boss is an entirely new game in and of itself. It requires a unique set of skills to be executed in a particular manner, and it requires a minimum of 10 people to do it. I personally do "study" and "learn to play" before raiding, but I'm not silly enough to expect every other WoW player to go that far. Blizzard needs to draw in far more than the number of players who are as enthusiastic about the game as I am to maintain their revenue.

[Deleted]

You can learn to cook by experimenting and you can learn to rebuild engines just by tearing one apart. If they required studying then none of these skills would be learned by a majority of the worlds citizens who still need stickers to understand that you should not mow your lawn with your baby crawling around in the high grass.

And you can learn playing WoW by trial and error. It is just less effective. Just as learning to cook by experimenting is.
You are not and never will be required to study WoW.

[Ronduwil]

Sure you can cook by experimenting but those that train and research techniques and ingredients and what not do it better.

In that way it is like WoW. Sure you can succeed at Flex and LFR by experimenting, but those that prefer to train and research fights and what not do normal and heroic raiding. That's as designed. There's room for everyone, and you're being silly when you tell people that they absolutely must study in order to play. That's like telling people that they need to be master chefs before they're allowed to cook their own meals.

[Deleted]

WoW endgame only has 2 things that NEED to be challenging. That's raiding and PvP. We don't need hard 5 mans. You think that average players want to sit there for 2 hours wiping in a 5 man? We tried that in Cata remember? How did that go?

Apparently they prefer wiping for 2 hours in a 25 man? The idea that 5 mans aren't allowed to be challenging even when they're tagged as HEROICS is bizarre.

[DeadmanWalking]

Don't remove it, just make the rewards for doing it not attractive to actual raiders, such as making the gear 1 ilvl lower than previous normal e.g SoO - 521, ToT - 495 and remove the legendary item drops. That way if you raid, even casually (so not heroic) you won't need to go into lfr to get an upgrade, and people who don't want to do organised raiding can still see the content which is what it's there for.

(Guild) Raidleader, “Man LFR sucks, just a bunch of bads with welfare legendaries and welfare purples. ”
(Guild) Raider, “Yeah, they should not allow them to have tier sets or trinkets, give a people areason to join raiding guilds.”
(Guild) Raidleader, “Totally, oh BTW Healer1 can’t make it to raid tonight, you have any friends that can fill in as a healer? Without a Healer we won’t be raiding tonight.”
(Guild) Raid, “I’ll check.”
Raider whispers to friend, “Hey you have a healer alt right? Are they raid worthy because we really need a healer tonight to raid.”
Friend whispers to Raider, “Yeah I have a mistweaver, all LFR gear including 4 piece set, BIS trinkets and legendary cloak.”
(Guild) Raid, “I got us a healer for tonight! ”

You guys don’t bitch and complain about LFR dropping this stuff when its helping you drop your raid boss. Hypocrits.

[pallyopness]

Not really. Most of us know how to use knives and forks, how to measure out flour, how to pour, and how to use appliances. We've grown up learning to do that stuff because you typically have to cook to eat unless you're following some oddball diet. When I want to try out a new recipe I don't need to spend 45 minutes watching videos and reading strat guides so that I can teach nine other people how to help me barbeque ribs. I just follow the directions and get it done with no prep beyond what that recipe demands. Over time I will find ways to improve and/or expedite steps in the recipe, but that's done "on the job" and not through study.


Long before you've taken up that hobby you've already learned to work with the tools required. From then it's just like cooking. You grab the manual, see what needs to go where, and just do it. No need for extensive preparation, and no need to find nine other guys to help you build your engine.


I learned how to cross stitch in third grade. My 11-year-old daughter is learning to knit. It doesn't require study. Someone shows you what to do and you just do it. The process of knitting itself is absolutely trivial.

These examples you gave are the equivalent of saying you need to know how to press buttons to play WoW, and I'm pretty sure that all of us have at least that much competence. The suggestion that we need to "study" to "learn to play" has far larger implications than the examples you gave. Each raid boss is an entirely new game in and of itself. It requires a unique set of skills to be executed in a particular manner, and it requires a minimum of 10 people to do it. I personally do "study" and "learn to play" before raiding, but I'm not silly enough to expect every other WoW player to go that far. Blizzard needs to draw in far more than the number of players who are as enthusiastic about the game as I am to maintain their revenue.

You are ignoring the fact that yes everyone has the BASIC skill set to do many things....but to do well and excel in to takes much more than MINIMAL and BASIC skills to do so, which REQUIRE learning/training beyond the BASIC set REQUIRED. I know how to walk (since being a toddler) thus I know how to run (since a young age) but that does not mean i can run a damn marathon. You have to TRAIN to be able to handle running a marathon. You can't just say...well I know how to run so Boston here I come. I'm gonna go beat those kenyans!!!! Your guys' arguments are so porous that you make swiss cheese seem whole.

- - - Updated - - -

In that way it is like WoW. Sure you can succeed at Flex and LFR by experimenting, but those that prefer to train and research fights and what not do normal and heroic raiding. That's as designed. There's room for everyone, and you're being silly when you tell people that they absolutely must study in order to play. That's like telling people that they need to be master chefs before they're allowed to cook their own meals.

No you don't need to study to play...you need to study to play the harder difficulties. But people who aren't wanting to study to get better to do the harder difficulties are complaining they can't do it and feel it is unfair. Totally different.

[Deleted]

You guys don’t bitch and complain about LFR dropping this stuff when its helping you drop your raid boss. Hypocrits.

You use the tools are your disposal. Just because you do not agree with something does not mean you cant abuse the shit out of it for your own benefit.

[Deleted]

While I agree that it would be a sad thing to see happen. The reality is
Say a generous 350k players doing normal mode. If all those leave but you have content for the millions of casual players and they stay subbed that's a better solution than.
350k stay but you then lose all your other customers. Its raw numbers. One side outweighs the other.

The problem is that many of the LFR crowd quit anyway once they've cleared the raid, which takes a month at best. Or they're casual players who would stay playing even if LFR was removed, provided there was adequate alternative content to replace it.
Normal/heroic raiders are likely to spend much longer clearing the content, so they stick around longer. And they're far more likely to quit if they literally have no challenging PvE content left to do.

[pallyopness]

also on the cooking note...sure I know how to cook, but I want to make a chocolate mousse cake or whatever it is (I don't cook so laugh all you want). Now I ASSUME chocolate is involved in the recipe but have no clue what else. Now would you like me to come make you a cake or would you prefer someone who took the time to look up ALL the ingredients and prep time and cooking heat do it for you instead?

[DeadmanWalking]

And you can learn playing WoW by trial and error. It is just less effective. Just as learning to cook by experimenting is.
You are not and never will be required to study WoW.

And you can go into LFR and experiment. I was usually topping the dps meters as warlock in cata but when I noticed someone in less gear than me was doing far more damage I looked into what I was doing wrong and realised that I was using 1 ability wrong which fed into all of them. I can't experiment on scheduled raid night. I recently switched to destro lock and thankfully I could re-tune my muscle memory in LFR's or else I would still be underperforming in my guilds raid. I can also experiment with my abilities in LFR to learn new tricks to killing more puddles in Immerseus rather than testing in raid one time a week (due to lock out and 1 shot). I send my raid members into lfr if they are not getting a mechanic like disc attunement spirals, dorummu's maze or whirlwind alley, where they can practice at any time of day as many times as they want without jeapardizing our raids progress. LFR is an excellent tool for a raid-like environment if used properly.

[Lolsteak]

The problem is that many of the LFR crowd quit anyway once they've cleared the raid, which takes a month at best. Or they're casual players who would stay playing even if LFR was removed, provided there was adequate alternative content to replace it.
Normal/heroic raiders are likely to spend much longer clearing the content, so they stick around longer. And they're far more likely to quit if they literally have no challenging PvE content left to do.

Without any sources to backup your claims, i'm finding it hard to believe you.

The fact is casual players are always going to be the main audience for WoW, the numbers simply outweigh the rest.

[DeadmanWalking]

also on the cooking note...sure I know how to cook, but I want to make a chocolate mousse cake or whatever it is (I don't cook so laugh all you want). Now I ASSUME chocolate is involved in the recipe but have no clue what else. Now would you like me to come make you a cake or would you prefer someone who took the time to look up ALL the ingredients and prep time and cooking heat do it for you instead?

Are you making a cake for 24 people at the presidents ball or are you making cake for your kids? Will your kids murder you if you fail to make the cake right? The entire cooking argument is stupid since LFR was not designed for the best players, thats what regular and heroic raids were made for.

[Deleted]

They have said that a dungeon takes just about as long as a raid wing to design. It takes 6 months to make 4 wings, to keep casuals occupied they would have to make 2 dungeons a month. Thats 12 dungeons (or 12 raid wings) every 6 months.

If the dungeons were tuned at a Cata/TBC level on heroic, and Wrath level on normal, that would be absolutely awesome for both casual and hardcore alike.
I mean as a heroic raider I really only needed a handful of truly difficult bosses to keep me entertained. Wrath was a fun expansion to raid in despite having about half of the number of heroic/hardmode bosses Panda does.

So yeah. Bring on the dungeons!

[PrairieChicken]

(Guild) Raidleader, “Man LFR sucks, just a bunch of bads with welfare legendaries and welfare purples. ”
(Guild) Raider, “Yeah, they should not allow them to have tier sets or trinkets, give a people areason to join raiding guilds.”
(Guild) Raidleader, “Totally, oh BTW Healer1 can’t make it to raid tonight, you have any friends that can fill in as a healer? Without a Healer we won’t be raiding tonight.”
(Guild) Raid, “I’ll check.”
Raider whispers to friend, “Hey you have a healer alt right? Are they raid worthy because we really need a healer tonight to raid.”
Friend whispers to Raider, “Yeah I have a mistweaver, all LFR gear including 4 piece set, BIS trinkets and legendary cloak.”
(Guild) Raid, “I got us a healer for tonight! ”

You guys don’t bitch and complain about LFR dropping this stuff when its helping you drop your raid boss. Hypocrits.

You didn't see all the complaining about how LFR is forced and mandatory? Remove gear and everything solved.

[Deleted]

I want Blizzard to decide who is worthy to do content, not You. Frankly I already call your judgement of who is worthy into question. If you allow the playerbase to decide who gets to do content then you will just get the raiding guild dilemma all over again, only the elite get invited in

Raiding guilds generally only apply stringent requirements if the content they raid demands it. Traditional raiding requires regular attendance and a certain level of skill and gear. Even LFR has a low but still present skill and gear barrier.

Do you also feel sports teams are elitist because they make people do tryouts and commit to a schedule?