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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Yeh thats why I can understand some peoples frustration. There was no alternative.

    I would thinkg having like so

    1st tier of heroic dungeons 463, You can upgrade dungeon loot to 471 via JP. Valour vendors have some items for sale at 476 for dungeon players to farm for.
    1st tier LFR 476, can buy valour vendor items with VP farmed from here as well so both LFR and LFD can be used to buy some VP items.

    You can lock the VP behind reputation but do it so you can unlock x amount of rep from a dungeon per day same for LFR and daily quests. That way you have options to get rep at your own pace or maximize it by doing all of them.

    New patch comes out
    Dungeons get automatically upgraded to 471 loot (the 1st tier dungeons)
    new 2nd tier dungeons come out with higher item level loot again just below LFR but can be upgraded to match it. new VP item vendor released.
    New LFR comes out.

    That way you have two catch up mechanics that work at a good pace and you can choose both if you wish but there at least is a good option.
    Or have no reputation requirement for the gear at all. That design is obnoxious and unnecessary and once again not very casual friendly. I still have yet to hear a good argument why the wotlk valor vendors were a problem. The currency issue was solved in ICC and the system was perfect at that point. It not only made catch up insanely good, it offset rng really well and basically made any activity that granted valour worth doing. Granted at the time not much gave you valour but imagine the valour systems in wotlk with the ability to get valour through daily quests or dungeons or raids or hell fishing or tailoring or whatever you want to do in game.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Or have no reputation requirement for the gear at all. That design is obnoxious and unnecessary and once again not very casual friendly. I still have yet to hear a good argument why the wotlk valor vendors were a problem. The currency issue was solved in ICC and the system was perfect at that point. It not only made catch up insanely good, it offset rng really well and basically made any activity that granted valour worth doing. Granted at the time not much gave you valour but imagine the valour systems in wotlk with the ability to get valour through daily quests or dungeons or raids or hell fishing or tailoring or whatever you want to do in game.
    I can agree to removing reputation as a barrier.

    The only issue with wrath was the lack of LFR! If you had wraths catchup dungeons and LFR added that would have been awesome.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    For everything outside of heroic raiding or high rated PvP, that's true. WoW is fundamentally a simple game which doesn't take any out-of-game effort to be reasonably good at, particularly if you're guilded.
    I am curretly doing heroic raiding by trial and error, always have and always will as I do not like the idea of reading up on stuff as that feels like cheating to me. What you need to keep in mind is that when the top guilds reach all the bosses, there is nothing to study or read up on, trial and error is the only way.

    I also really do not see why you cant get high rated PvP without studying.

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I can agree to removing reputation as a barrier.

    The only issue with wrath was the lack of LFR! If you had wraths catchup dungeons and LFR added that would have been awesome.
    Question is how popular do you think LFR would be in a world where the compulsion to do it was basically non existent or at least far less then before? Like let's say I still had access to a valor vendor like we had in cata or in wotlk without the need for rep. I mean I guess I would have still done lfr for the slots that needed filling but even still with flex around now I'm not really sure I would touch lfr.

    Don't get me wrong LFR isn't gonna go anywhere, in the current iteration of the game it serves it's purpose extremely well (and was designed to do exactly that) it's just the current iteration is poor especially at end game unless you're really into raiding at the highest levels. In a world where dungeons or any content could serve as an alternative and where flex is a thing LFR is in a weird spot. The popularity of lfr is basically because people are funnelled to it. Once you remove that funnel I'm not sure we'd have that many people electing to do it. *shrug*
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Question is how popular do you think LFR would be in a world where the compulsion to do it was basically non existent or at least far less then before? Like let's say I still had access to a valor vendor like we had in cata or in wotlk without the need for rep. I mean I guess I would have still done lfr for the slots that needed filling but even still with flex around now I'm not really sure I would touch lfr.

    Don't get me wrong LFR isn't gonna go anywhere, in the current iteration of the game it serves it's purpose extremely well (and was designed to do exactly that) it's just the current iteration is poor especially at end game unless you're really into raiding at the highest levels. In a world where dungeons or any content could serve as an alternative and where flex is a thing LFR is in a weird spot. *shrug*
    It would no doubt be popular as raiding was fairly popular in wrath still. If dungeons (via VP vendors) and LFR give similar rewards then its going to be a good thing. A lot of people who wanted to try raids out and met some barriers (not just gear related) could not do so. LFR provides them a group and an easier setting.

    There is only one way to truly find out though

  6. #606
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    It would no doubt be popular as raiding was fairly popular in wrath still. If dungeons (via VP vendors) and LFR give similar rewards then its going to be a good thing. A lot of people who wanted to try raids out and met some barriers (not just gear related) could not do so. LFR provides them a group and an easier setting.

    There is only one way to truly find out though
    I'm not convinced. Like I'm sure some people will do it but look at what flex alone has done to lfr already. Now imagine adding an actual alternative for lfr. Like I said in the current iteration of the game LFR works fairly well, prior to flex extremely well because it scooped up everybody. Once you start offering them alternatives (flex as an alternative raiding and dungeons or some other form of alternative casual progression at end game) then LFR is not as strong any more. I don't think they should get rid of it mind you even in that scenario but the real strength of lfr is that it remains largely untouched and has largely no competition at max level and the developers KNOW this. They designed it like this.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm not convinced. Like I'm sure some people will do it but look at what flex alone has done to lfr already. Now imagine adding an actual alternative for lfr. Like I said in the current iteration of the game LFR works fairly well, prior to flex extremely well because it scooped up everybody. Once you start offering them alternatives (flex as an alternative raiding and dungeons or some other form of alternative casual progression at end game) then LFR is not as strong any more. I don't think they should get rid of it mind you even in that scenario but the real strength of lfr is that it remains largely untouched and has largely no competition at max level and the developers KNOW this. They designed it like this.
    Flex has done nothing to LFR. If you believe the developers they say the participation in LFR is the same or at least roughly the same. They did say there was an issue with queuing that might be a bug.

    Do not over estimate flex, while its great a lot of people will do LFR over flex for the simple reason that they don't have to meet random requirements set by other players. As a pug leader you want a smooth run. You don't want billy no mates whos barely geared for it.

    Sure if you added a wrath style dungeon catch up it might affect LFR but I don't think it would be as bad as you make out. Give players the choice and lets see what happens. I would be more than happy to have a dungeon catch up (and new dungeons!) along with LFR so I can login choose which method I want that day and have my fun.

  8. #608
    The Lightbringer Draknalor186's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I'm pretty sure if Method, Midwinter and Blood Legion all went on strike at the start I next expansion Blizzard would scramble to get them back. Why? Because they are the players who have stayed here for a long time. The ones who don't quit because they have bad loot luck or got nerfed.
    i have been playing since sept 2006.. and never taken any "break" and i dont think blizzard would give a dam if i left the game

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You won't get good answers, because anyone saying that LFR should be removed simply hasn't thought the issue all the way through, or hasn't been playing long enough to realize that when the game DID have more dungeons, folks got utterly sick of running them, and you had just as many complaints flying around. (just about different topics).

    While the game should certainly have more dungeons, and hopefully good ones next time around, LFR isn't, and shouldn't, be going anywhere.
    wow took the words right out of my mouth

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    So what you're telling me is it's their own fault. They're still repeating the same raids over and over and over with no real sense nor urgency to progress to the next level because.... that's right the next level is still the same raid.
    Either they are repeating the same raid three times week on different difficulties or they are not progressing to the next level, you take a break, think on it a while and decide which one of these you are going to settle on.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Maybe if they aren't devoted players try don't belong in this type of game...

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

    Oh my goodness, you posted that as if you were serious. Yes, I'm sure Blizzard don't want people to stay in the game to pay subs, they only want people that are "devoted enough to belong".

    I'm also sure that when you go to do some content and your regulars aren't available...I bet you'll be glad spamming trade and/or openraid for multiple hours with no luck. Because hey, those people were like....pugs, casuals....they weren't DEVOTED ENOUGH TO BELONG...and anyway, you didn't really want to raid anyway, you LIKE copy/pasting a shout for pugs in trade....
    Last edited by Icaras; 2013-11-01 at 12:29 PM.
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  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Icaras View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

    Oh my goodness, you posted that as if you were serious. Yes, i'm sure Blizzard don't want people to stay in the game to pay subs, they only want people that are devoted enough to belong.

    I'm also sure that when you go to do some content and some of your regulars aren't available...I bet you'll be glad spamming trade and/or for multiple hours with no luck. Because hey, those people were pugs, casuals....they weren't DEVOTED ENOUGH TO BELONG...and anyway, you didn't really want to raid anyway, you LIKE copy/pasting a shout for pugs in trade....
    As far as I am concerned if you are devoted enough to pay a sub in the age of F2P (also known as nickle and dime you to death) then they are devoted enough for me.

    People who call for 80% of the playerbase to quit the game because they are not as devoted are nuts, you might as well go back in time and execute your own parents before you are conceived. Calling for the end of LFR to protect precious purples from casuals when LFR allows blizzard to dump 100% of its post-leveling resources into raiding content is also insane. It ranks right up there with living on welfare because you dont like working, prefering fox news and voting republican because Republicans will straight up tell you they will end welfare if they get the shot at it. I’ve heard that shooting oneself in the face is common when people are stupid enough to look down the barrel to see if it is clean.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I am curretly doing heroic raiding by trial and error, always have and always will as I do not like the idea of reading up on stuff as that feels like cheating to me. What you need to keep in mind is that when the top guilds reach all the bosses, there is nothing to study or read up on, trial and error is the only way.
    Pretty much every first kill video you see has DBM running, and the top guilds have forum posts committed to learning and discussing tactics. Arguing that it's pure "trial and error" isn't quite as accurate as you're making it out to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I also really do not see why you cant get high rated PvP without studying.
    It's about looking up helpful macros, composition tactics, map specific attack points or learning about other classes and compositions without having to physically play them all.

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    People can run 5 mans repeatedly in the same day for loot. You can not for LFR so people only went into them once or twice a week (counting on queueing into first or later boss). Those 6 other days a week of not doing that wing tend to keep you from burning out on it.
    In the TBC and Wrath endgame models, most people only did their daily heroic for Badges/Valor. 7 dungeons or 1 LFR run per week is probably a similar time investment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Maybe there needs to be something in place as the overall endgame that you are thinking about doing after the raid while you are raiding. As it stands now, there isn't much of an endgame outside of raiding, but maybe they need to invent something new, the only downside is that if it is too competitive with raiding it might result in nobody wanting to raid.
    So you think many people are only raiding now not because they enjoy it, but because its the only way to progress their character? Interesting

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    It was the same thing with totc with its 4 modes people felt that they HAD to gear in all the lesser modes to get ready for a heroic mode or some shit.

    Now you may have had a break and did not do the first tier and then wanted to join in on normal tot runs in a guild pug. I can understand that there were not that many great ways of gearing up aside from LFR. If however you were in a guild and were doing LFR just to maximize your gear chances then that's a personal problem rather than a game design one.
    It was a game design issue with ToC because you needed Emblems to buy Tier 9, and running as many modes of ToC as possible was the quickest way to get it. They largely fixed this problem in Cataclysm by putting a weekly cap of Emblems/Valor, so you could get capped on Valor from whatever your main raid was, plus a few dungeon runs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Either they are repeating the same raid three times week on different difficulties or they are not progressing to the next level, you take a break, think on it a while and decide which one of these you are going to settle on.
    Yep. Its LFR or no character progression. Because you're not posting in a 32 page thread FILLED with suggestions on alternative character progression methods.

    Honestly, you raiding uber alles elitists make me sad.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    In the TBC and Wrath endgame models, most people only did their daily heroic for Badges/Valor. 7 dungeons or 1 LFR run per week is probably a similar time investment.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So you think many people are only raiding now not because they enjoy it, but because its the only way to progress their character? Interesting

    - - - Updated - - -



    It was a game design issue with ToC because you needed Emblems to buy Tier 9, and running as many modes of ToC as possible was the quickest way to get it. They largely fixed this problem in Cataclysm by putting a weekly cap of Emblems/Valor, so you could get capped on Valor from whatever your main raid was, plus a few dungeon runs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yep. Its LFR or no character progression. Because you're not posting in a 32 page thread FILLED with suggestions on alternative character progression methods.

    Honestly, you raiding uber alles elitists make me sad.
    The game design was fine, it was player greed/self control that was the issue. Players will simply BURN through content as quickly as they can. Blizzard has gated content for years as a result of things like this. Hell Totc had gating on bosses being released per week :/ As a result that raid is detested by me!

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    In the TBC and Wrath endgame models, most people only did their daily heroic for Badges/Valor. 7 dungeons or 1 LFR run per week is probably a similar time investment.
    And how often did they create new dungeons for TBC/wrath in comparison to MoP? How often did new raid content drop TBC/Wrath in comparison to MoP? How many dungeons did they have in TBC/Wrath in comparison to MoP? How long did you get stuck in Final Tier Wrath? Did they expend all post-leveling resources only on raiding content or did they have to make things for the casuals to do as well?

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    And you are not paying attention now I guess?

    And if that was really a problem then how come you think it's a good idea to do the exact same with raids?
    I don't think it's a good idea. I'm pointing out that folks who are know waxing nostalgic about how people loved having dungeons, and no viable form of raiding outside of pugging if they weren't willing to schedule time for guild participation, actually are.

    Just the opposite happened, and Blizzard tried something different in response to it.

  18. #618
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    well, its not that hard to gear up a character.
    My warrior got 90 1 month ago and is 537 ilvl.

    11 LFR kills, 3 items.
    15 flex kills, 2 items.

    The rest is world bosses, timeless, crafted and normal ToT. So.. if LFR was removed, ye sure i might be few ilvls lower, but if you put in a little bit of effort it really isnt hard to get to a decent ilvl and get into pugs.

    But thats the problem i guess, players wants everything on a silver platter, not having to work for it (like us that started at mop launched and been going at it tier after tier).

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    And how often did they create new dungeons for TBC/wrath in comparison to MoP? How often did new raid content drop TBC/Wrath in comparison to MoP? How many dungeons did they have in TBC/Wrath in comparison to MoP? How long did you get stuck in Final Tier Wrath? Did they expend all post-leveling resources only on raiding content or did they have to make things for the casuals to do as well?
    Copy pasting from my earlier post...
    Yes, but TBC STARTED with more 5 mans than any expansion to date.
    TBC had Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, Shattered Halls, Slave Pens, Underbog, Steamvaults, Mana Tombs, Auch Crypts, Sethekk Halls, Shadow Labyrinth, Arcatraz, Mechanar, Botanica, Durnhole, Dark Portal. FIFTEEN dungeons. Plus Magister's Terrace tagged on in the final patch.

    Wrath had Utgarde Keep and Pinnacle, Halls of Stone, Halls of Lightning, Draktharon Keep, Gundrak, The Nexus(?), The Oculus, Violet Hold, Old Stratholme, Azjol-Nerub and Ahn'Kahet. Twelve dungeons. Plus the Horsie Arena one, then the 3 ICC ones. Whaddya know, the same number as TBC.

    But the clever thing was, TBC's dungeons weren't all the same difficulty. So when I started doing them in Patch 2.1, I'd only run Mechanar, Slave Pens, Underbog, Ramparts. Then as the average gear level went up due to better badge gear, more Kara pugs and better pvp gear, I started doing the harder heroics as well.

    Between that and some pvp there was quite a bit to do even without raiding. Heroic 5 mans were damned fun then. They were less friendly to bad players, but they were more friendly to time limited players because the overall clear time was less.

    And both expansions had sixteen dungeons PLUS some excellent raiding content, enough to keep my subbed for all of Wrath and TBC as a hardcore raider. And when I wasn't raiding, 5mans were a far more casual friendly experience than raids.

  20. #620
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I'm pretty sure if Method, Midwinter and Blood Legion all went on strike at the start I next expansion Blizzard would scramble to get them back. Why? Because they are the players who have stayed here for a long time. The ones who don't quit because they have bad loot luck or got nerfed.
    At the start of DS, Blizz banned most of them for abusing LFR looting glitches, and not much of a shit was given :S

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