Obamacare/ACA Megathread

[SirRobin]

You don't have to pay the tax if you don't overpay and get a tax refund owed to you. So if you adjust your withholding at your employer you can avoid the tax since the wording in the law says it can only be deducted from IRS refund funds.

Well that's easily done then. So those who don't want to be "forced" to get insurance have an easy out.

[lockedout]

would cause a $180 plan be reduced to $170 at most. (this is well informed estimate)

As much as I love to take peoples word for it over the internet unless you provide data to back up that claim it is worthless.

[The Riddler]

Yeah, how bad is the fine? $95 bucks? Just don't get insurance and pay the fine.

Well - the fine for being uninsured is not going to STAY affordable. In 2015 the fee increases to $325 per adult. Then in 2016 the fee increases to $695 per adult. If your "household income" percentage (1%, 2%, 2.5%) ends up being higher than that fee, then you pay the higher amount.

This is the fine you would pay in a YEAR - not a month. So for a single person, even $695 a year might be a far more acceptable cost than "opting in" to Obamacare's cadillac style requirement to get a plan with ambulatory, child care, addiction, and a bunch of other bells and whistles. ESPECIALLY when you consider...

You don't have to pay the tax if you don't overpay and get a tax refund owed to you. So if you adjust your withholding at your employer you can avoid the tax since the wording in the law says it can only be deducted from IRS refund funds.

This has been confirmed. And I've always been of the opinion that anyone who gives the government an interest free loan for a year is an idiot. Set up your withholdings so that you either zero out, or that you end up owing the Feds a little bit of cash. Then you'll never have to pay the Obamacare "fee" for not having an "approved health care plan" and take your savings and go buy a plan that actually makes sense for you and your situation.

The caveat to that is - of course - the government is very likely going to figure out a way to stick you for the fine eventually anyway. That's the only job they really care about. When they realize that millions of Americans are just going to figure out their finances in such a way as to avoid OBamacare's stupid "Tax - Not a tax - Penalty - Not a penalty", then they're not just going to shrug and accept it. I expect that eventually they'll set it up in such a way so that you cannot avoid it.

[SirRobin]

Then what is the big deal? Work the system like everyone else apparently does. Screw social responsibility and just angle it so you don't get a refund. Most ER's will still have to take you. The free clinics will still be free. If you don't want to be part of the system, you don't have to be.

[TZucchini]

As much as I love to take peoples word for it over the internet unless you provide data to back up that claim it is worthless.

I'm an independent agent. I deal with P&C policies all day long. I have first hand experience in removing things from policies, only to see premiums decrease by pennies on the dollar.

Take fire legal liability, for instance. It comes with most standard general liability packages. If I take $100,000 of fire legal coverage off a general liability package, premiums remain virtually unaffected. The savings is absolutely minuscule, which is why I advise clients to leave it on their policy, even if they think they'll never need it.

Sure. P&C isn't the same thing as health and life. But the concept is exactly the same.

[Cthulhu 2020]

This has been confirmed. And I've always been of the opinion that anyone who gives the government an interest free loan for a year is an idiot. Set up your withholdings so that you either zero out, or that you end up owing the Feds a little bit of cash. Then you'll never have to pay the Obamacare "fee" for not having an "approved health care plan" and take your savings and go buy a plan that actually makes sense for you and your situation.

The caveat to that is - of course - the government is very likely going to figure out a way to stick you for the fine eventually anyway. That's the only job they really care about. When they realize that millions of Americans are just going to figure out their finances in such a way as to avoid OBamacare's stupid "Tax - Not a tax - Penalty - Not a penalty", then they're not just going to shrug and accept it. I expect that eventually they'll set it up in such a way so that you cannot avoid it.

I am frankly amazed and shocked that the tea baggers aren't criticizing this loophole but hounding every single other one.

Oh right, this loophole means they don't have to give mean ole gubbamint money.

[The Riddler]

Then what is the big deal?

You could likewise ask, "Why should they have passed this stupid law in the first place?" In Obama's case, his intention has always been very clear. He wanted the government to be in control of 15% of the nation's economy, and in a position to dictate what is and isn't 'covered care'. That way the government becomes an important (if not the MOST important) player in every citizen's personal life regarding health care. Since Obama's ultimate goal has always been universal single-payer with the State in charge, then that's why.

And I think that answers why it's a "big deal" as well...

[Cthulhu 2020]

Guys, GUUUUUYS, Obama said you'd 'have' to pay a tax if you didn't get insurance, but there's this big old gaping loophole that makes it so that they won't enforce that. It's a terrible loophole in the law! Obama lied! Guys? Guuuuuys? Hello?

Hear that? That silence is the sound of hypocrisy.

[The Riddler]

I am frankly amazed and shocked that the tea party isn't criticizing this loophole but hounding every single other one.

Why would anyone criticize a loophole that allows you to KEEP your own money? Regardless, it is a loophole that - quite frankly - I don't expect to exist for very long. Like all Obama promises and claims, it comes with a huge asterisk. The reason it was written that way was so that in the 2012 campaign he could keep making the claim that it wasn't a 'tax'. They'll hold off on it until after 2014, I would guess. After that? Pht - there's no freaking WAY they would just let anyone get away with screwing the gummint out of its rightful claim to your money.

The only way I see this loophole being allowed to exists is as a way for Obama to purposefully hasten the collapse of his own law. Then he can say, "Well - we tried! But - hey - let me be clear...! The problem was not with my law. The problem was the free-market... aaand... private insurance. It's their fault. Let me be clear - we need a Single Payer system..."

That's the end game.

[Reg]

You could likewise ask, "Why should they have passed this stupid law in the first place?" In Obama's case, his intention has always been very clear. He wanted the government to be in control of 15% of the nation's economy, and in a position to dictate what is and isn't 'covered care'. That way the government becomes an important (if not the MOST important) player in every citizen's personal life regarding health care. Since Obama's ultimate goal has always been universal single-payer with the State in charge, then that's why.

And I think that answers why it's a "big deal" as well...

I believe the country should be single payer, so not a big deal. My only big problem with the ACA is it didn't go far enough.

[SirRobin]

You could likewise ask, "Why should they have passed this stupid law in the first place?" In Obama's case, his intention has always been very clear. He wanted the government to be in control of 15% of the nation's economy, and in a position to dictate what is and isn't 'covered care'. That way the government becomes an important (if not the MOST important) player in every citizen's personal life regarding health care. Since Obama's ultimate goal has always been universal single-payer with the State in charge, then that's why.

And I think that answers why it's a "big deal" as well...

Why we passed the law is pretty clear. Folks have been saying we need healthcare reform since at least Reagan. Just from what I remember. Don't recall Senior trying. Clinton tried but gave up. Did Junior do anything? Obama actually managed to get something through. Personally I think we should have gone back to Clinton's taxes instead, but with the economic meltdown I wouldn't be surprised if he thought healthcare reform was more achievable.

The government, through anti-trust laws, regulations, etc, etc... is in control of 100% of the economy already. So an extra 15% doesn't make a big difference.

All you have to do is compare healthcare's percentage of GDP to other countries to see that we could be getting more for our money. If the ACA starts getting us there? Good. At least something is finally getting done.

People who don't want it have an easy out. Yeah it may change later but they have an easy out now. So, take it.

[TZucchini]

I believe the country should be single payer, so not a big deal. My only big problem with the ACA is it didn't go far enough.

While I do like how successful single payer is in other countries, I also think that the ACA provides a nice balance. Privatized health care regulated by the government has a real chance of working -- if certain individuals stop impeding the progress. It's wildly successful in Massachusetts.

[Reg]

While I do like how successful single payer is in other countries, I also think that the ACA provides a nice balance. Privatized health care regulated by the government has a real chance of working -- if certain individuals stop impeding the progress. It's wildly successful in Massachusetts.

I believe that was the point, a balance between those who still want private insurance but government regulation while insuring everyone.

[lockedout]

I believe that was the point, a balance between those who still want private insurance but government regulation while insuring everyone.

What other aspects of your life do you need the government to regulate?

[Reg]

What other aspects of your life do you need the government to regulate?

If you wish to make another thread about that, go ahead. Not going to derail this one. I believe the government has a responsibility to ensure the life and health of the people.

[Blur4stuff]

conservatives just don't make sense to me on this issue. the usa system is worse than at least 30 other countries. trying to get them to go along with changes is like pulling teeth. all of the effort that republicans have spent trying to prevent and kill ACA could have been spent differently. just imagine if they tried to help improve it instead of destroy it.

right now their worst nightmare is that ACA works and more people get healthcare for reasonable prices. just think about that. they are afraid that people will get affordable healthcare. the website glitches practically make them climax. they are actively cheering for millions of americans to be worse off.

in any case, if you are so bad off financially that you don't think you can afford insurance, then you most likely qualify for a lot of subsidies. it won't be that bad. buy fewer drinks each month. downgrade your phone plan. if you can't afford any of that anyways then you're so poor that you qualify for medicaid. so this shouldn't even be an issue.

well, unless you're unfortunate enough to live in one of the republican dominated states that's refusing everything and trying their best not to cooperate. if that's your situation then please move.

[SirRobin]

What other aspects of your life do you need the government to regulate?

Well water quality would be nice. Building codes, power grids, anti-trust, all sorts of things.

[lockedout]

If you wish to make another thread about that, go ahead. Not going to derail this one. I believe the government has a responsibility to ensure the life and health of the people.

Our government has to protect us from foreign enemies, criminals, and natural disasters if it can. That alone says they are here to take care of us. What else are they here for? WE THE PEOPLE are SUPPOSED to make up the government! So naturally we should take care of ourselves. If it were not for the people the government would not exist.

[Reg]

Our government has to protect us from foreign enemies, criminals, and natural disasters if it can. That alone says they are here to take care of us. What else are they here for? WE THE PEOPLE are SUPPOSED to make up the government! So naturally we should take care of ourselves. If it were not for the people the government would not exist.

So you want a government to fight the enemies on foreign soil by not the diseases that affect people at home? I am damn glad I don't live under your ideal government. And you're right, the government is supposed to be FOR the people, and I believe that includes the health of the people. You can't govern dead people.

[The Riddler]

I believe the country should be single payer, so not a big deal. My only big problem with the ACA is it didn't go far enough.

I understand there are those who have that position. However, that is definitely NOT how Obamacare was 'sold' to the public. And that's important, because Obamacare would have never seen so much as one vote had it been described as "My plan is to replace the system with a single payer system". Obama and his bad plan would have been ridden out of town on a rail if they'd been truthful.

We could be getting more for our money. If the ACA starts getting us there? Good. At least something is finally getting done.

Doing something incredibly stupid simply for the sake of it is not a virtue. And telling the government it can do nothing is no vice.

Why we passed the law is pretty clear.

I would say that the reason why people wanted health care REFORM is clear. However, why we got stuck with OBAMACARE specifically was deliberately obfuscated. Let us not forget, "we have to pass the law to find out what's in it". The public had no idea of the full ramifications & extent of this law either before or after it was passed. That was on purpose. It is not until now that even the very first hints of what it will do are becoming apparent. And the more people learn, the less they like it.

The government, through anti-trust laws, regulations, etc, etc... is in control of 100% of the economy already. So an extra 15% doesn't make a big difference.

The government must be fought bitterly over amounts far less than that. Government taking control of even 0.001% of the economy is reason for the most strident of objections.