A Flex Group Is Never Truely Full

[Cheekun]

Unless it has 25 people in it, or 14 if you want to stick to ten man difficulties. So please, stop saying a group is full when you're at 10 members. Its actually easier if you recruit as many people as you can and remove the trouble makers as you go along. Lets all remember that this is flex, and you can have odd numbers of raiders.

Maybe its just a pet peeve of mine, but does anyone else roll their eyes when they see that a flex group is "full" @ 10 members?

Edit: People seem to think I'm just qqing about not being invited to flex groups. This simply isn't true, as i have no problem getting into groups. So you might ask why did i make this topic if not to qq? Its actually to point out some points. Namely points i make in posts on other pages which I'll quote here to better facilitate discussion.

At 10 people, you can add in a additional healer and 3 more dps to smooth out damage and to buff your damage meters, you even have insurance for people who are slacking off or underperforming for their gear levels. You can kick these people resulting in two benefits; decreasing the difficulty and effectively increase your dps and healing output.

With the limited amount of tanks in general, shouldn't we be including as many people as we can when we do find them, so that way we can all get our loot quicker and move on?

[Thelxi]

11-13 is a sweet spot imo. If you can get that many good people there is no reason to risk adding a baddie.

[Littleraven]

Unless it has 25 people in it, or 14 if you want to stick to ten man difficulties. So please, stop saying a group is full when you're at 10 members. Its actually easier if you recruit as many people as you can and remove the trouble makers as you go along. Lets all remember that this is flex, and you can have odd numbers of raiders.

Maybe its just a pet peeve of mine, but does anyone else roll their eyes when they see that a flex group is "full" @ 10 members?

ive noticed this as well. ive actually even seen people that didnt even know it adjusted to how many people are in it. its like they missed the entire point of what flex is. sure its easier to have an even group since the scaling can be a bit wonky at times (they may have smoothed that out) but ive never understood why people think you HAVE to have 10 or 25.

[Deleted]

It's true that there is no magic number, though you may need to find more healers if you add too many dps. You can't just add 6 dps to a 10-man flex and call it a day for example, unless your healers are amazing of course. One more person is unlikely to tip the balance toward not having enough healing, though.

Some people may also use being full as an excuse so they don't need to say no directly for other reasons.

[Vongimi]

There are a few (viable) reasons why you would want it to fill at 10, but most don't do it for these reasons.

1. You know all 10 and know they are all great players, inviting more random people is highly likely to delude the quality of the group. (Usually not very common, especially if people are asking for more in Openraid/Trade)
2. You don't want to look for more healers to accompany the increased raid size due to bringing more DPS.

#2 is the most common of these in my experience, and its perfectly okay. There is another VERY common reason, that is simply outright wrong. Trying to find some magic number to make flex the easiest, which is what A LOT of people base their group sizes on, is just silly. Difficulty increases with every player added, the instant you put 11 players in the group you aren't going to have the same difficulty as 10 players. There are SOME mechanics that increase at certain player counts (such as Narushen that puts in an extra gold orb at 15, 20, and 25 players), but its usually different player counts per mechanic and so trying to find a magic number before you hit mechanic X's point will put you over mechanic Y's point. Its a moot point. Eventually people will realize that (hopefully).

But if its not that, its usually #2. Taking another DPS might mean having to grab another healer as well, and that takes awhile.

Silliest point I ever heard was "when you get 15 players it goes up to 25 man difficulty!". I facepalmed, hard.

[Nobleshield]

This goes to show that the community will take anything and try to min/max the hell out of it. This "magic number" crap defeats the entire purpose of Flex.

[cFortyfive]

The problem I usually face is that it is simply too hard to find enough healers in an appropriate timeframe and running 20man + with only three healers who are semi competent at best is just making it uncomfortable for no reason.

[rohendar]

Because I run 2 healers in my 10 man flex grp and don't want to look for a 3rd. Not that hard tbh. The great thing about flex is that you can take whatever you want, the person that makes the raid decides the number. I decide my group is full at 10, you quit your bitching!

[Celista]

11-13 is a sweet spot imo. If you can get that many good people there is no reason to risk adding a baddie.

Makes more sense to bring the additional person along when pugging, if you truly have no idea what your pugs' skill level is. That way you can trim the fat based on performance, and/or still have a full group if someone has to drop halfway through the raid.

[Bysu]

This goes to show that the community will take anything and try to min/max the hell out of it. This "magic number" crap defeats the entire purpose of Flex.

This so much. I play in a low pop server and since my guild does 10 man raid during the week I usually have to use OQueue to find a group for flex runs; the thing is that I usually tag along with a friend and some days it just gets nearly impossible to find any premade that will take us both (even if we're both sitting at 555+ ilvl).

Lately it's been getting into my nerves every time I hear someone mention this stupid "magic number" (a.k.a 14 or less), and it seems like no matter how hard one tries to explain that it's just some urban myth (the fights always scale in a linear fashion depending on raid size) people still bows down to such rule arguing that it implies getting "25 man mechanics"... It just makes me wanna kick their teeth down their throats so bad /*sigh*/

I really hope Blizzard steps forward in this regard and makes a huge, loud, and clear statement to put down all this "magic number" crap before it ruins the whole purpose of flex.

[Nobleshield]

I really hope Blizzard steps forward in this regard and makes a huge, loud, and clear statement to put down all this "magic number" crap before it ruins the whole purpose of flex.

They have. Ghostcrawler made a comment on Twitter to the effect of "If you're looking for ways to min/max Flex, then Flex isn't for you". It doesn't matter as long as you get people who believe it and follow the "My group, my rules" rule or worse spoiled entitled players that demand these kind of things. I have seen people say in comments on Openraid things like "Will only go if less than 15 in raid".

Found the quote: https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...47934424006658

If you are min-maxing group size for Flex, you aren't the audience for Flex.

[Sul]

We determine the raid size by the number of healers available . Pugging healers on our server is nearly impossible , we have had to cancel flexs because we couldn't get enough healers .

So yes at times 10 ( well up to 13 with 3 heals ) IS full

Its also up the raid leader on the amount they want to take , some because of the supposed magic number and some because they don't like to handle too many pugs in the group will only take groups well below the max of 25 .

Remember that flex is NOT lfr where the number is fixed , if you don't like the max number that RLs say is "full" then start your own . Flex raiding is not an automatic right for players , its totally up to the raid leader to decide how many they will take

[MrExcelion]

The only thing I usually have to be concerned about with flex groups is whether or not there's enough healers that can support the influx of DPS that want to come

[Frolk]

I find the magic number 11-13
Can go with more if i know the people are skilled and not a bunch of LFRheros or Timeless heros

[Onomatopoeia]

Exactly this. I've had more luck running with 17-22 than with more or less. My last 14 man run wiped 10 times on Garrosh, why would that be?

People who believe such things and try to adhere to such things are likely terrible. Reminds me of when you could 10 man the 5 man instances in vanilla, and the group spent like 10m finding the 10th (I said just run it with 9), it failed, coudn't even kill a boss (live strat)

About 30m later I got invited to 5man it, and did it fairly easily, I very rarely 10 manned after that.

I didn't even know the person, or people in that group, ran with them tons after that, ahh memories.

[Senen]

Unless it has 25 people in it, or 14 if you want to stick to ten man difficulties. So please, stop saying a group is full when you're at 10 members. Its actually easier if you recruit as many people as you can and remove the trouble makers as you go along. Lets all remember that this is flex, and you can have odd numbers of raiders.

Maybe its just a pet peeve of mine, but does anyone else roll their eyes when they see that a flex group is "full" @ 10 members?

I don't like to kick someone when I have invited him.
When we run a Flex, we're at least 6 from our guild (usually more 8 or 9), so depending on what we're attempting, I invite more or less people.
Flex 1? Ok, invite all your friends.
Garrosh? Nope, when we have 10 good people, we're good to go, except if I'm sure that the 11th who want to join us is as good as the 10 other players.

[Cheekun]

I find the magic number 11-13
Can go with more if i know the people are skilled and not a bunch of LFRheros or Timeless heros

I get what most people are saying when they say something similar to this. I'm just tired of the 10 and go mentality. 10 groups are almost always 2-2-6 composition. Most fights in the later wings of Flex are more comfortably healed with 3 healers. Anything less and things start to get a bit out of hand, unless you outgear it (which why the hell would you be in flex if you outgear it?). So i find the magic number to be exactly 14. 3 healers to make the harder fights more comfortable and extra dps to give that third healer more to do. That's why 10 man flex groups make very little sense to me, outside of 550+ groups in flex 4 only to kill garrosh for heirlooms, but that's a different story.

[Nzete]

That reminds me... time for guild Saturday flex fun... beer league raiding with at least half alts. Not sure about the rest of you all, but we are going to have to roll for which healers (plural) have to go dps. There is a point off too many healers for the number of dps, and we get there when it is "bring whichever toon you want".

[Deleted]

2 healers is easily enough for up to 15 people. They don't even need to be that good. The dmg is pretty low on FLEX so if you know not to stand on fire it is easy peasy. Bosses are supereasy as you have lots of dps. You can even carry some crappy dps this way.

[Sul]

I get what most people are saying when they say something similar to this. I'm just tired of the 10 and go mentality. 10 groups are almost always 2-2-6 composition. Most fights in the later wings of Flex are more comfortably healed with 3 healers. Anything less and things start to get a bit out of hand, unless you outgear it (which why the hell would you be in flex if you outgear it?). So i find the magic number to be exactly 14. 3 healers to make the harder fights more comfortable and extra dps to give that third healer more to do. That's why 10 man flex groups make very little sense to me, outside of 550+ groups in flex 4 only to kill garrosh for heirlooms, but that's a different story.

If I have 10 guildies or people I know in the group I will definitely go with that number instead of pulling in some pugs .

On our first few attempts we did try and fill up with more pugs , always insuring we got a healer before adding 4 more dps , and this proved a disaster.

A lot of RLs would of had similar experiences so this would be one reason people are running with less

Flex wasn't really designed for out and out pugs , though it certainly can be used for that purpose , it was designed so people could raid with friends from other realms or guild etc without upsetting normal mode raids ( we have people who run with us who do normal with their own guild ) and for guilds who didn't have enough players to do normal modes