Which race is the oldest?

[Aquamonkey]

That snippet of text says the titans were aware of the elementals, doesn't indicate that they were aware that the elementals worshipped the old gods, or that the titans even knew the old gods existed.

Fine then read the whole thing:
Unaware of Sargeras' mission to undo their countless works, the Titans continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering each planet as they saw fit. Along their journey they happened upon a small world that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth. As the Titans made their way across the primordial landscape, they encountered a number of hostile elemental beings. These elementals, who worshipped a race of unfathomably evil beings known only as the Old Gods, vowed to drive the Titans back and keep their world inviolate from the invaders' metallic touch.

The Pantheon, disturbed by the Old Gods' penchant for evil, waged war upon the elementals and their dark masters. The Old Gods' armies were led by the most powerful elemental lieutenants: Ragnaros the Firelord, Therazane the Stonemother, Al'Akir the Windlord, and Neptulon the Tidehunter. Their chaotic forces raged across the face of the world and clashed with the colossal Titans. Though the elementals were powerful beyond mortal comprehension, their combined forces could not stop the mighty Titans. One by one, the elemental lords fell, and their forces dispersed.

The Pantheon shattered the Old Gods' citadels and chained the five evil gods far beneath the surface of the world. Without the Old Gods' power to keep their raging spirits bound to the physical world, the elementals were banished to an abyssal plane, where they would contend with one another for all eternity. With the elementals' departure, nature calmed, and the world settled into a peaceful harmony. The Titans saw that the threat was contained and set to work.

The Titans empowered a number of races to help them fashion the world. To help them carve out the fathomless caverns beneath the earth, the Titans created the dwarf-like earthen from magical, living stone. To help them dredge out the seas and lift the land from the sea floor, the Titans created the immense but gentle sea giants. For many ages the Titans moved and shaped the earth, until at last there remained one perfect continent. At the continent's center, the Titans crafted a lake of scintillating energies. The lake, which they named the Well of Eternity, was to be the fount of life for the world. Its potent energies would nurture the bones of the world and empower life to take root in the land's rich soil. Over time, plants, trees, monsters, and creatures of every kind began to thrive on the primordial continent. As twilight fell on the final day of their labors, the Titans named the continent Kalimdor: "land of eternal starlight".

[Rixis]

I know what the whole thing says, but you didn't post the whole thing, hence my commenting on "that snippet".

As we've been over a dozen times, we simply do not know what did and did not happen. You assume that you know what happened because you so easily dismiss older lore without any form of consideration outside of what your own thinking.

I mean, what's to say that the titan (or whoever) that wrote the data entries knew what happened and is actually accurate? Same with the books. Do we consider that the data provided ingame is provided from their viewpoint or from a factual "this is what happened" viewpoint?

As you yourself have posted there, the old gods were on the planet before the titans even came. So you are now using a source you've discredited as too old to suit your own means?

[Deleted]

But Dwarfs doesn't come from the Trolls, so when did Dwarfs come to life? Also the Pandaren seem pretty ancient?

Dwarfs are Earthen, Titan creations, with the Curse of Flesh.

[Asphyxiate9]

Draenei or Faceless Ones. Both of which may have existed before the titans arrival to Azeroth.

[Aquamonkey]

I know what the whole thing says, but you didn't post the whole thing, hence my commenting on "that snippet".

As we've been over a dozen times, we simply do not know what did and did not happen. You assume that you know what happened because you so easily dismiss older lore without any form of consideration outside of what your own thinking.

I mean, what's to say that the titan (or whoever) that wrote the data entries knew what happened and is actually accurate? Same with the books. Do we consider that the data provided ingame is provided from their viewpoint or from a factual "this is what happened" viewpoint?

As you yourself have posted there, the old gods were on the planet before the titans even came. So you are now using a source you've discredited as too old to suit your own means?

I used the WC3 info to point out how it doesn't line up with the newer sources...

[Rixis]

That's ok then, rest of my point still stands though.

[Aquamonkey]

I mean, what's to say that the titan (or whoever) that wrote the data entries knew what happened and is actually accurate? Same with the books. Do we consider that the data provided ingame is provided from their viewpoint or from a factual "this is what happened" viewpoint?

That is a valid point. If you want to go that route, the in-game books are canonically written by unknown authors of dubious reliability. Tribunal is a Titan database created contemporary to the Titans being on Azeroth. Titans and their constructs have no reason to lie. Archivum and Algalon are brutally honest and straight up say the Titans are going to murder everything on the planet if his analysis returns a bad result.

So you are now using a source you've discredited as too old to suit your own means?

I guess I oversimplified in my previous statement of "downright dismissing" the WC3 lore. I meant I'm dismissing the parts that are inconsistent with newer lore. Like how Sargeras and the Betrayal is still accurate except for the specific parts that were retconned by newer lore.

Trying to reconcile the various sources has gaping holes:
The Titans stumbled across Azeroth, then fought and imprisoned the Old Gods beneath the surface of the world (Tribunal says containment happened after Curse of Flesh). Then they seeded the planet with their constructs and set up the terraforming before leaving (WC3 lore says the Titans remained until the terraforming was complete). As the Earthen were doing their job deep underground, near to where the Old Gods were imprisoned, they became infected by the Curse of Flesh. The Titans came back to try to destroy the Old Gods completely, but found out this would be bad for Azeroth (for some reason they didn't discover this when they killed Y'Shaarj during the war). They strengthened the prisons, made new constructs, set up the Aspects, and left again.

Where there is contradiction, new lore trumps old lore.

[Redlokyldoreifanggore]

Trolls > High Elves > Blood Elves / Night Elves (Nelves pretty common to pre-sundering Helves) > Worgen (see below)

Earthen > Dwarves / Troggs

Titan Machinations > Gnomes

Various Titan Constructs > non-elemental Giants / Vykrul > Humans (debatable) > Worgen (see below) / Forsaken (not an evolution, but still a step away)

Tauren > Yaungol / Taunka

common bear-like ancestor > Furbolg / Pandaren

Eredar > Draenei (not really an evolution, but still a step away)

Goblins (?) - similar home and beginnings as trolls, evolved at an accelerated rate while enslaved by trolls, took over, not sure on common ancestor

Orcs are rumored to share a similar ancestor with gronn and ogres.

Worgen come from another dimension and most remaining are infected Azerothian races (nelves, humans)


There's a flow chart somewhere online that gives decent evolutionary trees about most of the races but I can't be bothered to find it at the moment. The point of all this is to give a little info on how some of the races can be so much older. Based on what I remember from said chart and various other little readings, I'm guessing either the trolls or the draenei / eredar are the eldest of all.

[Fahrenheit]

On Azeroth? Trolls.
Playable in game? Draenei

[Aquamonkey]

I think there was a quest where it was more explicitly and objectively explained.

I think this is it then:
Injured Night Elf Priestess says: BY THE LIGHT OF ELUNE! Eredar! Cursed demons, what have you done to me? I have not come alone, we will fight you as we have in the past! I...

Injured Night Elf Priestess falls back into a coma.

Anchorite Fateema says: Man'ari... But how... We are not eredar! She must know! If there are others like her, we must find them and explain...

- - - Updated - - -

I'd say they changed a bit. Look at Velen, and compare him to another male. Not only is he alot bigger, like lorecharacters usually are, but hes slimmer and got different proportions.

They are still similar enough that even a Legion Eredar can pass as a Draenei:
Sironas is an eredar... I mean, yes, obviously.
Obviously. How else could she infiltrate their ranks and pass as a draenei? She has been living among them for a very long time.

[Deleted]

Draenei, since some still remember Argus as it used to be... 25k years ago.
Trolls next, as they're one of the first races on Azeroth.

[Deleted]

Though it's difficult to class them as a "race" - the bronze dragonflight. They are as old as time itself.

[Ciddy]

I'd say it's going to be a "tie" between Draenei and Trolls, where we don't really know which one is the oldest of the two. Trolls are the oldest Azeroth-native race. Modern Night Elves actually descended from them. We know the Earthen were around when the Sundering happened, but they weren't the same Dwarves we know today.

We don't know exactly how old the Draenei are. The events on Argus where Velen escaped with his group happened 25,000 years ago, but we don't know how old Velen was at THAT time. He was in a position of power at the time, so he was at least old enough for that.

I was wondering about Orcs too. Wowpedia says "The orcs of Draenor had lived in a noble shamanistic society, roaming in tribes the grasslands of Nagrand on their dusty world of Draenor, for over 5,000 years." But I can't find a source for that 5,000 number other than Wowpedia. Tauren were around during the War of the Ancients, but I can't find anything else in the timeline before that mentioning Tauren.

Though it's difficult to class them as a "race" - the bronze dragonflight. They are as old as time itself.

Not sure. I think the OP was referring to playable races though.

[The Flavour Cat]

On first thoughts, I was torn between Draenei and Orcs, but went with the former, as they crash-landed on Draenor (in Oshu'gun, yeah?). And then after looking at the timeline on wowpedia, and being torn about how long the Orcs were on Draenor for, I'm not tooo sure, but I'd hazard a guess at Draenei.

[Grubjuice]

without a doubt it has to be either draenei or troll, but there is no definitive date of origin for either.

[Wyrt]

On first thoughts, I was torn between Draenei and Orcs, but went with the former, as they crash-landed on Draenor (in Oshu'gun, yeah?). And then after looking at the timeline on wowpedia, and being torn about how long the Orcs were on Draenor for, I'm not tooo sure, but I'd hazard a guess at Draenei.

Draenei, trolls, and orcs might be the native races of their respective planets so they could all be around the same age. Draenei just progressed further and faster because of the ata'mal crystal.

[Therougetitan]

We don't know how long the Trolls have been around. Could be easily 25k years, there isn't much history on way back then. So either Trolls or Draenei. But with current lore it cannot be known.

[Aquamonkey]

Draenei, trolls, and orcs might be the native races of their respective planets so they could all be around the same age. Draenei just progressed further and faster because of the ata'mal crystal.

In talking with Velen, K'ure refers to others as "younger races" it's unclear if he's including eredar in that statement. If he's not, then the eredar would be considered an older race on the universal scale.

"How?" Velen had raged once, "How is my life more important, worthier, than theirs?"
The gathering is slow, K’ure had admitted. But it continues. There are other Naaru like me, who are reaching out to the younger
races.

Also, the orcs appear to be a younger race on Draenor. The Arakkoa being an ancient race that founded the long extinct Apexis civilization.

EDIT: The TBC Bestiary says: "The eredar are one of the oldest known races in the universe."

[rcshaggy]

Titans are the oldest.

[Wyrt]

Titans are the oldest.

I'd put my money on naaru, elementals, and voidlords.