Shadow: +2 Shadow orb banking.

[tiporispit]

Seems kinda lame. So MB and SWD are going to be the big hitters (again), and you can now bank orbs for the DP that hits like a wet noodle (yay?). They seriously need to settle on a playstyle and stop fucking around with it every god damn expansion. They've been alternating between the Vanilla/TBC model and the WotLK model over and over for years. Pick one for Christ's sake.

[Drye]

Yeah, who would ever want them to go back to an easier way of balancing shadow so we can be competitive again. This way our rotation won't be so tight that one change drastically alters everything.

[Dierdre]

Yeah, who would ever want them to go back to an easier way of balancing shadow so we can be competitive again. This way our rotation won't be so tight that one change drastically alters everything.

Was buffing mind flay that hard though? I can't imagine it being gamebreaking for PvP, and for PvE it would have little effect for multitarget fights.

Call me paranoid, but I'm convinced the reason we weren't balanced wasn't because it was hard; we were purposefully nerfed in MoP to cull our numbers to favor warlock pop.

[Yvaelle]

Was buffing mind flay that hard though? I can't imagine it being gamebreaking for PvP, and for PvE it would have little effect for multitarget fights.

Call me paranoid, but I'm convinced the reason we weren't balanced wasn't because it was hard; we were purposefully nerfed in MoP to cull our numbers to favor warlock pop.

Agreed - it was obviously to try to make people play warlocks again. The problem I see with this is that - since few human beings actually want to go all Hot Topic with the demons and the skulls and such - if they ever put us back on equal footing - former shadow mains are likely to come back to the spec they like rather than the spec they play because raids stack them.

[Kaesebrezen]

Was buffing mind flay that hard though?

Reasons against buffing MF:
- Impact on Talents (FDCL and Insanity)
- Impact on stat values (mastery)
- Worth of proc refreshing (more MF damage -> less and less gain from refreshing -- this one btw is huge)

So, yeah - buffing Mindflay would've had it's price - and at least for me it doesn't seem that low.

[Dierdre]

Reasons against buffing MF:
- Impact on Talents (FDCL and Insanity)

Scale down SWI accordingly. No impact on talents.

- Impact on stat values (mastery)
- Worth of proc refreshing (more MF damage -> less and less gain from refreshing -- this one btw is huge)

You're missing the point. Sure, it would slightly affect the way you play currently. But the maximum output potential would still be raised for ST fights and remain largely unaffected for multitarget.

[Deleted]

I see a world in 6.0 where shadow has more shadow orbs than it knows what to do with. I like the idea of the extra 30s dot (Void entropy was it?) on multitarget fallen protectors style fights, I can see this being obscenely powerful but also really fun to deal with/track/organise. Alternatively I would really like to see something else to do with our Shadow orbs. If we consider PvE only, we really only use them on devouring plague. I'd like to see another way of using them that is perhaps inefficient (not providing as much actual damage as devouring plague would) but more burst. Perhaps a method of recycling shadow orbs? If the target is above 20% health, you can still use shadow word: death for such damage, but it will cost a shadow orb? Whereas below 20% health it will give one.

[Venaliter]

I see a world in 6.0 where shadow has more shadow orbs than it knows what to do with.

I suspect this may be the case as well with either Spiritual Guidance or Power of Clarity.

I like the idea of the extra 30s dot (Void entropy was it?)

The Power of the Void sucks for many different reasons. You actually like it? It better be a placeholder or I'm picketing blizzard.

Alternatively I would really like to see something else to do with our Shadow orbs.

Very much yes. Mind Spike used to do extra damage with Shadow Orbs. That, or something like that, would be interesting. It definitely needs a pretty dramatic change. Shadow Orbs were a beautiful example of Blizzard's...rather lazy...priest design.

[Deleted]

The Power of the Void sucks for many different reasons. You actually like it? It better be a placeholder or I'm picketing blizzard.

I don't play shadow too much, being a disc/holy specced priest myself, but I do play it occasionally. I see a situation where you can place a 30s dot on the target with all your procs up that will deal pretty considerable damage with haste at the beginning of the fight, and also later devouring plague on top. Nice powerful dotting. Shadow priest style.

I may just be being ignorant here - but what is the problem with tis ability?

[Venaliter]

I may just be being ignorant here - but what is the problem with (Power of the Void) ability?

a) It doesn't interact with any of our spells
b) It's a magic DoT - very easy to dispel in PvP
c) Has no burst, like, at all.
d) Is basically useless on any fight with target switching
e) Has literally no pro's except how ridiculously easy (and boring) it is to apply once every 60 seconds.

[Deleted]

a) It doesn't interact with any of our spells
b) It's a magic DoT - very easy to dispel in PvP
c) Has no burst, like, at all.
d) Is basically useless on any fight with target switching
e) Has literally no pro's except how ridiculously easy (and boring) it is to apply once every 60 seconds.

Which is why it is one of 3 options? For multidot/cleave bosses I can imagine it being very useful in applying sustained pressure as an extra tool to do so.
1) Not everything has to interact with other spells.
2) Devouring Plague is also easy to dispel in PvP (though not as much). Saving disease dispels for devouring plague against a shadow priest is like, standard, to destroy their burst if they're stupid enough to take insanity.
3) Not everything has to be about burst. Shadow priests are not meant to burst. They are based around the idea of applying continuous DoT pressure on the target. Shadow is sill viable in current incarnations without such "burst". Devouring plague/Insanity will still be available to apply SOME burst. If real upfront burst on a target is required, would we not be better off taking the Mindspike-oriented talent instead?
4)On a target switching fight I would imagine taking the Shadowy-apparitions talent instead. This permits more frequent switching via more frequent Devouring Plague uptime which can be hence used to apply pressure to different targets more frequently.
5) I think being able to apply sustained pressure to 2/3 targets simultaneously or sustained pressure to a target while focusing others (think Stone Guard, Will of the Emperor, Garalon, Amber-shaper Un'sok, Protectors of the Endless, Horridon, Council of Elders, Tortos, Twin Consorts, Fallen Protectors, Dark Shamans, General Nazgrim) while focusing one would be rather useful.

[Yvaelle]

f) An execute ability that is worthwhile over 60 seconds has to be either absurdly overpowered or useless. The damage output needs to be higher than Devouring Plague or we'd just DP instead - it needs to be significantly higher to outweigh the benefit of DP's healing as well - and the potential gained damage of Insanity as well. It also has to factor in that we need to bank off the target living for more than 60 seconds - so it needs a boost for that as well (it can't be a DPS loss during the first 50 seconds and only surpass DP's damage in the last 10 seconds, for example). That means it has to have a VERY high damage output per cast, because if any of the above isn't true - DP is better.

If the above is true, if Void Entropy does so much damage that it's worthwhile to not just DP instead, then fights where we can multidot Void Entropy's will be way too strong (Void Entropy will be overpowered). If the above is not true on any point, then Void Entropy will always be a mistake compared to Devouring Plague. Lastly, consider the effect of a high DoT snapshot on a spell like that. My spriest has 50k spellpower, 40% haste, 30% crit, 45% mastery - Void Entropy needs to be balanced around those stats, right? Except - Yvaelle also procs up to 90k spellpower, sometimes over 200% haste, and 40% critical chance - that means the damage of void entropy at a perfect snapshot would be like... triple or more the damage of a normal cast (it's kind of the same problem as apparitions refreshing dot durations in ToT).

[Venaliter]

f) An execute ability that is worthwhile over 60 seconds has to be either absurdly overpowered or useless. The damage output needs to be higher than Devouring Plague or we'd just DP instead; if any of the above isn't true - DP is better.

It has to be better then DP + Insanity, to be exact.

Lastly, consider the effect of a high DoT snapshot on a spell like that. My spriest has 50k spellpower, 40% haste, 30% crit, 45% mastery - Void Entropy needs to be balanced around those stats, right? Except - Yvaelle also procs up to 90k spellpower, sometimes over 200% haste, and 40% critical chance

DoT snapshotting is gone in Warlords of Draenor. It won't be missed by me.

[Yvaelle]

It has to be better then DP + Insanity, to be exact.

I said that?

DoT snapshotting is gone in Warlords of Draenor. It won't be missed by me.

Oh really? I hadn't heard that - so do ticks refresh to stats constantly then? I am sad to see that go, Aristari wrote me such an awesome stat tracker for my DoTs this expansion

[Venaliter]

Oh really? I hadn't heard that - so do ticks refresh to stats constantly then?

Indeed. DoTs now update dynamically. Would it be cheeky to link MMO-Champ as the source? :P But yeah, it's gone. That was the one thing Power of the Void would have had going for it. As of now, ALL of the following have to be true for PotV to be useful: PotV > DP + Insanity, b) Mob must live(be attackable) for 60 seconds, c) Dispels must not be present d) You must not enjoy a dynamic DPS rotation. Some pretty stringent conditions.

PotV just sucks. Period.

[Dierdre]

Oh really? I hadn't heard that - so do ticks refresh to stats constantly then? I am sad to see that go, Aristari wrote me such an awesome stat tracker for my DoTs this expansion

Dunno how to insert tweets on this thing but there:

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 9 nov
@NagasshtheBlack Dot snapshotting translated into mods telling you when to press the buttons.

[Yvaelle]

Indeed. DoTs now update dynamically. Would it be cheeky to link MMO-Champ as the source? :P But yeah, it's gone. That was the one thing Power of the Void would have had going for it. As of now, ALL of the following have to be true for PotV to be useful: PotV > DP + Insanity, b) Mob must live(be attackable) for 60 seconds, c) Dispels must not be present d) You must not enjoy a dynamic DPS rotation. Some pretty stringent conditions.

PotV just sucks. Period.

Not cheeky, I'm still reading all the things Agreed though, PotV is terribly designed - but I'm not outraged by it - I just really doubt it's anything more than placeholder.

- - - Updated - - -

Dunno how to insert tweets on this thing but there:

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 9 nov
@NagasshtheBlack Dot snapshotting translated into mods telling you when to press the buttons.

Hmmm... that's only really true because looking at your character panel to see your crit/mastery/haste/spellpower was obstructive - all my addon does is displays them as a HUD overlay so I can see my snapshots without memorizing stats on application. It's not telling me anything the UI doesn't already, it just doesn't take up half my screen.

[Venaliter]

It's not telling me anything the UI doesn't already, it just doesn't take up half my screen.

They can say what they like, but really it's the difficulty they are having balancing things with snapshotting in game.

[Drye]

As posted in the talent post, these talents at old and already been reworked.

[Powell]

First it was like Holy Power, now it is Holy Power?

They really need to think of more unique secondary resource mechanics, this is getting sad.