Why bring a DK DPS to a 10 man group?

[Louis CK]

Im happy to give you logs from Method from latest raid to show how bad DK:s doing compared to other classes.
Infeh is ranked nr 1 in World in many fights here are some logs from NR1 25 men Guild in the World.
Hes got absolut best gear you can have as a DK ILV 577 many of the other classes is not Close to that ILV. Those that says we are fine dont have a clue what they talking about. Utility thats just old booring excuses.

If you want logs go ahead and take top 100 Guilds and check how many Death Knights they have in the Guilds. Compare Melee and Range... Logs tells truth.

Im tired of people defending Death Knights and tells we are doing fine in the middle, well we are not in the middle if you play with 10 awesome players different classes, we are probably the lowest. I have like 8 HC kills and doing fine beeing like top 3-4 /10 men) but im not even Close to Warlocks, Rogues, Boomkins etc etc

Go to worldoflogs.com and search Twisted Nether and look latest logs for Method. Start from Galakras and so on. Infeh is one of those that is ranked nr 1 in many fights in the World compare him to like say Warlocks... Take these logs to start with and go on and check top 10 Guilds in the World and tell me how many Death Knights are there? And compare to DPS to other classes how do they do... I cant post links here beacuse its first time i do a account here but anyway all logs is out there and we are not doing fine.

These logs is just from one top Guild take top 100 and look for yourself and come back and tell me im wrong.

You're wrong.

[Kronik85]

I cant belive some people here that post alot and defending that we doing fine. Are you playing HC fights at all? Do you play with people equal skilled as you?? If you do theres no chance in the World you can defend a Death Knight and its DPS.

Obviously man, I'm not a DK....tell you what infact, I'm not even here! These posts exist solely in your head.

*Makes spooky ghost noises*

Seriously though, just checked top 3 Frost parses across 25H up to Siegecrafter and the numbers seemed fine. They weren't all top of the metres but I didn't see anyone breaking the mould apart from Locks. It's always fun when you ask someone to prove a point and they proceed to tell you to go find it out yourself. If your unsatisfied with my research then maybe you should start posting relevant materials yourself?

[Deleted]

Obviously man, I'm not a DK....tell you what infact, I'm not even here! These posts exist solely in your head.

*Makes spooky ghost noises*

Seriously though, just checked top 3 Frost parses across 25H up to Siegecrafter and the numbers seemed fine. They weren't all top of the metres but I didn't see anyone breaking the mould apart from Locks. It's always fun when you ask someone to prove a point and they proceed to tell you to go find it out yourself. If your unsatisfied with my research then maybe you should start posting relevant materials yourself?

Lol yes we only have one specc to play, or am i wrong isnt there two dps speccs we can play. We have Unholy, we have 2 hands frost and we have Dual Weil frost.
Well if you have Tier 4 set bonus 2 HC one handers Trinkets from Galakras and Trinket from Thok you can be probably somewhere lower middle. Theres no chance you are higher that lets take Rogues, warriors, warlocks, mages, Boomkins in same Bis Gear.

And with your entrance you did on my post i understand that you Think you are the man the ghost that everyone listens to and look up to... Cough cough...
About logs its not so hard to post raidbots.com says abit of about it goes for us but i have read comments about that too so you can prove that you are the man to trust... I read logs from real Guilds that also show same thing. I will post them here when i have permisson to do so.

But i will try to do some post and sooner or later i can post some links, but until then i can just trust myself and keep reading all Mighty treads that tells people that they wrong.

BRB

[Maxweii]

Lol yes we only have one specc to play, or am i wrong isnt there two dps speccs we can play. We have Unholy, we have 2 hands frost and we have Dual Weil frost.
Well if you have Tier 4 set bonus 2 HC one handers Trinkets from Galakras and Trinket from Thok you can be probably somewhere lower middle. Theres no chance you are higher that lets take Rogues, warriors, warlocks, mages, Boomkins in same Bis Gear.

And with your entrance you did on my post i understand that you Think you are the man the ghost that everyone listens to and look up to... Cough cough...
About logs its not so hard to post raidbots.com says abit of about it goes for us but i have read comments about that too so you can prove that you are the man to trust... I read logs from real Guilds that also show same thing. I will post them here when i have permisson to do so.

But i will try to do some post and sooner or later i can post some links, but until then i can just trust myself and keep reading all Mighty treads that tells people that they wrong.

BRB

I don't even need to say much more then a total of two posts, both of which are in this thread, give you almost no credibility when up against Kronik, whom is a frequent poster and whom was one of the people who did tons of work on the PTR/PTR discussion thread to find out all of the what is now common knowledge for us.

Amusing edit to your post even though someone had already quoted you as well

[Kronik85]

And with your entrance you did on my post i understand that you Think you are the man the ghost that everyone listens to and look up to... Cough cough...
About logs its not so hard to post raidbots.com says abit of about it goes for us but i have read comments about that too so you can prove that you are the man to trust... I read logs from real Guilds that also show same thing. I will post them here when i have permisson to do so.

Plenty of DK's on this forum have a much larger E-wang than myself.....I'm like Beer League.

About the spec's, your right to an extent but it's the same situation all round for every class. One spec will shine for a tier and others will see less play and fall further behind than they actually should be, so I didn't really see much point wasting time looking at Unholy parses.

No ones arguing DK is god mode atm, just that we are still viable if your a good raider and your in the right environment. In the real world most players keep their raid spots because they are good raiders, it's got nothing to do with class in the manner that it's being argued in this thread. I actually raid with a Warrior and a Rogue, who gets the spot is determined by who needs loot since we only run 2 spots and just spend the night rotating in and out. When it comes to progress I'll probably get a spot by default since I've raided with this guild for 5 years, they have faith in me.

Why am I bringing this up? Because I'm trying to illustrate just 1 scenario in which a DK can find a raid spot. There's potentially thousands upon thousands of different reasons you might bring a DK to a raid, not many of which factor in Raidbots or Noxxic but instead real life variables such as finding an actual raider to begin with.

Sure DKs might not be the best atm, but you can still raid heroics with them and do the numbers you need to clear the encounter without holding your group back. The time to be arguing about what's optimal is long since gone, the race for World First over long ago. What your left with isn't a super competitive environment, if you as a raid leader want to min/max your raid then your welcome to do so but there is also thousands of others guild trying to find their own way to do things too.

Today you prompted me to look at parses, I didn't find anything I found all that disturbing. Find me something disturbing though and I'll take it into consideration.

[Deleted]

I don't even need to say much more then a total of two posts, both of which are in this thread, give you almost no credibility when up against Kronik, whom is a frequent poster and whom was one of the people who did tons of work on the PTR/PTR discussion thread to find out all of the what is now common knowledge for us.

Amusing edit to your post even though someone had already quoted you as well

Just because i came here today and typing dosent mean that im new and doesnt know what im talking about. Ive been playing WOW for 6 year and followed these sides since very long. Because i started to care is that ive been Reading alot last weeks and people saying different things. Im not the guy that just start complaining without any reason. But i notice how our dps slowly just get worse compared to other classes with new gear. People that tells things on Forums that we do fine doesnt raid Heroic raids. I can admit if you have as i said Before trinkets weapon and 4 set bonus we doing ok as dual Weil frost but its far away from good.

I read a post a year ago the biggest misstake Blizzard done with Death Knights Before. Answer where that they listen to the players at the forum and made them OP. It was true in Wotlk. In LFR, Flex i dont doubt that DK doing fine we have a passive cleave that ramps up our numbers it looks quite good here.

As people say that DK cant get raid spots is absolutly true i came to Twisted Nether 2 moths ago and got smashed that DK:s where so bad. I have proved my skill in my Guild and they told me that they where happy to see what i did in raids because Deathknights is so bad nowdays.
I didnt belive this statement in beggining but now when HC gears comes it shows that we dont follow other classes as gear goes up.

I would probably doing way better with 2 good 1 handers but thats not how it looks like now but thats doesnt matter because i look what we do with logs and also look for DK:s that is fully geard with HC gear. And those dosnt look good compared to others. You can go and check World of logs and check the best dps and it will probably show that they are top dps in the Guild. Well thats one way to see it but many times its abit luck when you get Those high numbers. But if you also look what we do absolutly highest and go and check what other classes do you get a better Picture that tells more about the class. But the best way is to go to Top Guilds and look what they have in the raid and also what they perform logs is nice but what guilds wants in raids is even more important.
Logs is also about average performance you cant just check top 5 or top 10 you need to check atleast top 40 and get a feeling about how we doing.

I know that this is also hard to say because fights is different for melee and range. But we doing mostly 5-10% lower than second lowest in every fight. IF you look top 40 its telling even worse. But these logs look good compared to how it looks in HC raids overall.

[Deleted]

DK's arent the best class atm on single-target fights. On AoE fights like Garrosh and Galakras they're up there with the big boys.

They don't assist that much in a raid through support, only through Anti-Magic Zone and the fact that on many fights this tier they require less healing than others, thanks you AMS. A lot of fights in this tier deals heavy Magic damage, raidwise and single-target. When a DK gets Evil Eye of Galakras he'll be able to use that every 30 seconds. So for the healers he'll take care of himself much more than other classes, if he knows when to use them that is. AMS can leave him with prtty much full health on Iron Juggernaut's shock waves.

[Shiira]

On AoE fights like Garrosh and Galakras they're up there with the big boys.

Have you even looked at the numbers for those bosses?

[nehunter]

Ok kids after 9 pages what's the answer? That there is a perfect 10 man team and if as raid leader of guild #2000+ in the world you bring anything less you are a retard ?

[Kronik85]

Ok kids after 9 pages what's the answer? That there is a perfect 10 man team and if as raid leader of guild #2000+ in the world you bring anything less you are a retard ?

I think you get the joke yes.

In a month or two the language will probably change, we will the best scaling classes and specs destroy the metres but as a DK you will be no less viable unless your in some super competitive environment that is both lucky enough to have players playing multiple classes at a geared level and actually cares at this stage in the game as to who's doing what best.

Bring the player yo.

[Shiira]

Pretty much, if you haven't finished tier 16 yet you aren't competing at a level where you're affected by minor class balance issues, and if you have you don't need to care until next tier anyway.

[Darkfriend]

Pretty much, if you haven't finished tier 16 yet you aren't competing at a level where you're affected by minor class balance issues, and if you have you don't need to care until next tier anyway.

Except it can really matter. Certain disparities impact lesser progressed guilds even more than higher ones.

[Keiyra]

Except it can really matter. Certain disparities impact lesser progressed guilds even more than higher ones.

By far, player skill and executing mechanics correctly, are going to matter a hell of a lot more than what color dot you chose to play - even for those guilds.

[Darkfriend]

By far, player skill and executing mechanics correctly, are going to matter a hell of a lot more than what color dot you chose to play - even for those guilds.

Yes, but in the case of lesser guilds you often WON'T replace people. Which means that class balance actually matters more. In a top 10 guild you often have the choice of equal geared and skilled toons/people. Other guilds don't, which is why it can matter.

Basically I'm saying don't look too narrowly at it. "That which is seen and that which is not seen" as Bastiat wrote.

[Shiira]

If you're still progressing you have more than enough gear to compensate for any lack of stacking powerful dps specs, and you have far more to gain from playing better than from worrying about what you could have stacked.

This tier isn't exactly full of difficult dps checks anyway.

[Sallador]

DK's are pretty awesome, our DK does fantastic DPS and has insane cleave.

[Deleted]

If you are not Paragon on in the top 100 guilds (more or less), you will get much better results from looking at the player, not the class.

[DarthMetatron]

Don't worry Lillnovan, at least I know you're right. The problem is that we have a lack of class leadership here and on the wow forums. You will not get support by the supposed "class spokespeople". If you say something other than "we're completely fine (everything is awesome)", you're going to get egg on your face by the drooling masses. People believe everything "some people" on this forum say, without doing any investigation for themselves.

If you try to stand up and say something isn't right and try to prove it, the straw man arguments are going to come flying at you. For instance if you try to prove it with logs, they're going to falsely claim "sampling bias". If you try to prove it with math or simulations, they will keep coming back and asking you to change this or that...or just say simulations have no value.

Most of us have all but given up trying to improve the class because of the attitude of a few people who rub elbows with the CMs.

My intention is not to start a flame war but I will probably get warned or banned just for speaking up about what is really happening.

[Gabbynator]

its easy to get rank 1 when you have 577 ilvl in 10 man seriously...and some low population play unholy this tier you need to check frost logs not unholy

[facerollin]

Gorefiend's Grasp/AMZ/Bres, you have it really well compared to other specs/classes.