(If you want faster queues, be nice to your tanks!)

[felcommander]

I play a tank. I do not tank LFR (use DPS gear) because there are almost always tank-swaps and other mechanics that involve another semi-aware tank. Most of the time the other tank will not respond to whispers or any info at all. So yes, as tank the fate of the group is in your hands and its possible that the other tank will just refuse to do what they need to do.

I've also been in LFRs where the other tank doesn't speak english, its like really? now what?

[Absintheminded]

And that is acceptable because... ?

It means expect the worst, hope for the best, with regards to people's attitudes. It was a blanket statement, not me condoning everybody being a prick because 'hey, it's the interwebz right?!'

[Annoying]

Many tanks suffer from special snowflakiness and fragile egos.

To be fair tanks do have more on their plate in most pve content below actual raiding, yet when it comes to actual raiding healers and dps have way more to do than tanks. Funny how that works out.

But yeah I agree. Most toxic players I ever met or played with in WoW were tanks.

Timeless Isle has brought this upon us. I can't even count the number of people who queue as tanks in 100% timeless gear with no gems/enchants/reforges. They don't know the fights, and wander into things that have been staple "don't do that" areas. I had a tank last night on lei shen who continually pulled the boss into the deactivated pillar, just standing there on the electrified ground. After 3 or 4 attempts, some ret paladin put on tank gear/spec and pulled the boss to the right pillars after the first intermission.

Is it too much to ask that you have a quick read-over of the dungeon journal or even icy-veins or something? You're the lynchpin, the keystone of the group and you can't be bothered to research what it is you need to do?

[Raeln]

It can be abused, this karma system,

Some ways they could fight that is to add certain checks.

If 2+ people are queued together, their thumbs up/down count as ONE person (this way, a group of 10 people, can't give 10 up/down votes)
You can not give thumbs up/down to people you have queued up with.
You can only get a maximum of 1/5/10 per run or 30 per day, 100 per week, something to limit how much can get.
They decay over time, so you can't just sit on them, you have to be active.

Just some ideas of how it would work, I know Oqueue has the karma system, I rarely see it get used though.

No limits other than 1 per account.

If I gave you a thumbs down today, it would be the same thumbs down until I either canceled my account or changed my vote toward you. There should never be more than one vote against another player from me - ever. There should be 3 options:

I want to play with you again (thumbs up).
I don't care (no vote).
I don't want to play with you again (thumbs down).

As I said - systems need to be simple. If I absolutely never, ever, ever wanted to group with you again - I'd use the /ignore mechanic too.

[Fagatronics]

I frankly don't buy this for a moment.

Agreed. Saying the community is the problem exempts Blizzard from blame. It's more deflecting negetive PR than answering or solving the issue.

[Raeln]

Timeless Isle has brought this upon us. I can't even count the number of people who queue as tanks in 100% timeless gear with no gems/enchants/reforges. They don't know the fights, and wander into things that have been staple "don't do that" areas. I had a tank last night on lei shen who continually pulled the boss into the deactivated pillar, just standing there on the electrified ground. After 3 or 4 attempts, some ret paladin put on tank gear/spec and pulled the boss to the right pillars after the first intermission.

Is it too much to ask that you have a quick read-over of the dungeon journal or even icy-veins or something? You're the lynchpin, the keystone of the group and you can't be bothered to research what it is you need to do?

Nah, it's more "there's nothing else but raiding to do" than anything else. In previous expansions, there were heroic dungeons for those players - now they are all funneled into one content type.

The shame is all Blizzard really put out this expansion was basically raiding. Scenarios and dungeons are sitting over there kinda neglected.

[Lexanna]

I've posted on a few of these "What's wrong with LFR threads", and tbh my response is always the same. I tank 3 LFR's per week, and I run into the same issue with almost every run. I'm cast as the "sudo-leader" so I'm OK with that. I know the fights, and can break them down pretty well. The issues I run across are the too eager DPS that feel they need to pull everything for me, or the way way way under performer(both DPS, and Heals). I don't know about the rest of the tanks that have commented on this thread but that shit, that shit right there pisses me off to no end.

Example: Two bosses in, everything has been going smooth, a couple of people drop from group, and we pick up some to fill the spots. Now all of the sudden shit is going nuts. 100's of mobs being pulled, bosses getting pulled pre-break down, pre-ready check, and the people at fault just laugh about it, or tell me to pull faster...etc... Those are what make me not want to Que.

[Mewmix]

I love tanking, because usually I am the one calling the shots....as if I am out of position, EVERYBODY DIES. So yeah I have a lot on my plate. My positioning of the boss, has an impact on all of my melee dps. I move the boss away from bad, again to make it easier for the melee and give them space to dodge anything else happening. Sure I am human and I might screw things up once in a while, and sure people are going to die but sorry if 1 dps screws up, they die....nobody is really going to notice. They might rage and blame someone not healing them enough....through a 1 million damage hit? Not happening.

I remember tanking back in Naxx 40, on the pull if 1 tank missed a taunt....wipe it try again. Our raid didn't freak out at the tanks, they knew how much stress we were under even getting that far. Fast forward to Sarth 3D 25 man, I was the only tank that could eat the breath when the second dragon was up, and if I didn't pop my cooldowns in the correct order, at the exact right time, WHILE dodging the flame wave, game over wipe it try again. Again raid didn't care, they knew how hard I was working as they watched the raid footage and couldn't understand why I didn't put my fist through the screen a few times.

And yes I totally understand playing healer is basically playing "Wak-A-Mole" as I have been shifting between healer and tank this entire expansion with whatever people need the most of, and usually in LFR....healing is easiest and least repair bills. (Instant queues, always able to keep yourself alive)

The long and short:

-DPS see big numbers all the time so they get the inflated ego because BIG NUMBERS = I R IMPORTANT! There's 17 of you, if you die there's 16 to make up for it. There are 6 healers, if one dies 5 people have to pick it up (much harder), and only 2 tanks. If one of the two dies usually EVERYTHING falls apart. Most fights have mechanics which require 2 tanks.

-Some tanks have a giant ego because of their position, and rightly they deserve to be put back in their place of, this is a team everybody needs to do their job, but being a jerk is sometimes needed if people won't listen to the ones who are actually controlling the boss, and therefore controlls the fight.

-Tanks DICTATE THE PACE. Tanks normally (and hopefully), are looking at the mana of the healers to know when they can continue, and when they need to wait. If the healer is oom, they are going to die. So usually waiting a few seconds is useful, to not stress the healer.

-IT'S A GAME! PLAY FOR FUN. Being a douchebag isn't fun to play with, no matter what your role is. When I play healer, I am "UNABLE" to heal douchebags sometimes. As a tank my taunt "MISSES" sometimes. After the 5th or 6th death, usually they get the idea or ragequit.

The thread should be renamed to: if you want faster queues, BE NICE TO EVERYBODY.

[hablix]

I've been tanking LFR lately. I got called a dumbass tank once and left the group but that's not really what makes me hesitant to queue.

There are two main reasons. First of all most fights are "taunt at 3 stacks of debuff X" which are not fun to tank. I feel like a drone whose sole purpose is to keep an eye on the other tank and taunt every 45 seconds. That's not what tanking should be about imo.

The second reason is that the fights I haven't tanked yet might have some mechanics specific to tanks that I don't know about (non dungeon journal stuff), which makes me nervous about trying them the first time. (Maybe because if I fail at a mechanic I wasn't prepared for I'll get called a "dumbass tank".) When I'm trying a fight for the first time I cover up my chat window so that I don't have to deal with any harassment from the raid. However, once I've done the fight once this factor is mostly eliminated.

In SoO, the best tanking fights for me are Galakras, Shamans, Spoils, Protectors. (Haven't tanked W4 yet.. too nervous!)

Galakras - The two tanks have specific tasks. One goes up the towers and tanks mobs + tower miniboss, the other stays below and tanks mobs + miniboss. When Galakras comes down it's fast and intense, so I'm not spending 8 minutes standing by a boss waiting to taunt.

Shamans - Each tank has a boss, there's a lot of mobility. Both tanks have a chance to shine. There's a tank swap but it's an intense moment in an intense fight - read: non-boring.

Spoils - Each tank has its own side and a lot of personal responsibility for managing that side.

Protectors - no tank swaps.

Overall I believe tank swaps are a transparently artificial gimmick to force tanks to take turns. I don't like it at all. Take Thok for example - which actually isn't the worst fight to tank. What would be so bad about the tanks agreeing before the fight "I'll take the boss you get the adds"? Or *gasp* "do you have a DPS spec?" Instead of forcing tanks to take turns through gimmicks, give them the opportunity to coordinate between MT and OT roles. If there were more fights like the ones I listed and fewer fights where I'm playing taunt bitch, I'd queue more.

[yajinni]

I kind of like this.

No limits other than 1 per account.

If I gave you a thumbs down today, it would be the same thumbs down until I either canceled my account or changed my vote toward you. There should never be more than one vote against another player from me - ever. There should be 3 options:

I want to play with you again (thumbs up).
I don't care (no vote).
I don't want to play with you again (thumbs down).

As I said - systems need to be simple. If I absolutely never, ever, ever wanted to group with you again - I'd use the /ignore mechanic too.

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And how is this blizzards problem? This is a problem created by the community. They can try to fix it, but fixing it requires they either bust out a stick and start punishing people or a carrot to try to make them behave better. In the end a good chuck of the problem is there because of peoples behavior.
What do you suggest blizzard does to solve the problem?

Agreed. Saying the community is the problem exempts Blizzard from blame. It's more deflecting negetive PR than answering or solving the issue.

[Taojnhy]

We let people change their names in real life, why not in game? The government doesn't put a huge sign out in front of Washington listing "XXX changed name to YYY" on it every day.

Also what if someone wants to get away from an abusive guild/player/situation? Or even just an unpleasant one?

---

I think getting rid of both changes would cause far, far more negative outcomes than positive.

Legal name changes are well documented in court records which are generally able to be viewed by the public; a sign isn't necessary. Honestly though, Blizzard doesn't really need to notify us of name changes, instead just make it so the /ignore function applies to the ignored player's account and not just the toon. I've had to deal with a situation before in which someone kept rolling toons to harass me around /ignore. Blizz's position is, "report them and we'll look into it", which has always been unacceptable to me.

[yajinni]

Not useful.
What is the cause of the problem and the solution to in in your opinion?

I frankly don't buy this for a moment.

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Well the only problem is in LFR you cant make it very complicated because thats not what its meant for.
if you want more complexity you have to do a higher level of raiding.

I've been tanking LFR lately. I got called a dumbass tank once and left the group but that's not really what makes me hesitant to queue.

There are two main reasons. First of all most fights are "taunt at 3 stacks of debuff X" which are not fun to tank. I feel like a drone whose sole purpose is to keep an eye on the other tank and taunt every 45 seconds. That's not what tanking should be about imo.

The second reason is that the fights I haven't tanked yet might have some mechanics specific to tanks that I don't know about (non dungeon journal stuff), which makes me nervous about trying them the first time. (Maybe because if I fail at a mechanic I wasn't prepared for I'll get called a "dumbass tank".) When I'm trying a fight for the first time I cover up my chat window so that I don't have to deal with any harassment from the raid. However, once I've done the fight once this factor is mostly eliminated.

In SoO, the best tanking fights for me are Galakras, Shamans, Spoils, Protectors. (Haven't tanked W4 yet.. too nervous!)

Galakras - The two tanks have specific tasks. One goes up the towers and tanks mobs + tower miniboss, the other stays below and tanks mobs + miniboss. When Galakras comes down it's fast and intense, so I'm not spending 8 minutes standing by a boss waiting to taunt.

Shamans - Each tank has a boss, there's a lot of mobility. Both tanks have a chance to shine. There's a tank swap but it's an intense moment in an intense fight - read: non-boring.

Spoils - Each tank has its own side and a lot of personal responsibility for managing that side.

Protectors - no tank swaps.

Overall I believe tank swaps are a transparently artificial gimmick to force tanks to take turns. I don't like it at all. Take Thok for example - which actually isn't the worst fight to tank. What would be so bad about the tanks agreeing before the fight "I'll take the boss you get the adds"? Or *gasp* "do you have a DPS spec?" Instead of forcing tanks to take turns through gimmicks, give them the opportunity to coordinate between MT and OT roles. If there were more fights like the ones I listed and fewer fights where I'm playing taunt bitch, I'd queue more.

[Giscoicus]

Nah, it's more "there's nothing else but raiding to do" than anything else. In previous expansions, there were heroic dungeons for those players - now they are all funneled into one content type.

The shame is all Blizzard really put out this expansion was basically raiding. Scenarios and dungeons are sitting over there kinda neglected.

Well LFR lets them do that. I would prefer if Siege cut out Galakras, Norushen, Paragons and Spoils, a 10 boss tier, if we got some heroics. But because the LFR crowd will never let LFR die, and Blizzard giving people options will inevitably do that, they arent making more heroic right now.

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Not useful.
What is the cause of the problem and the solution to in in your opinion?


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Well the only problem is in LFR you cant make it very complicated because thats not what its meant for.
if you want more complexity you have to do a higher level of raiding.

Im sorry, it was made for those who dont have time to raid. Nothing about skill. There is no reason it has to be piss easy, since it is made for those with time constraints, not malfunctioning brains

[Shakari]

Many tanks suffer from special snowflakiness and fragile egos.

To be fair tanks do have more on their plate in most pve content below actual raiding, yet when it comes to actual raiding healers and dps have way more to do than tanks. Funny how that works out.

But yeah I agree. Most toxic players I ever met or played with in WoW were tanks.

It has nothing to do with being a unique snowflake lol, and I would not say DPS or healers have any more or less to do than tanks tbh, there about equal, the issue is just the tanks the most critical one with zero redundancy, can lose a couple of dps and a healer and still have a fair chance of downing the boss but a tank dies and can't be rezzed then its a wipe without fail.

And given the number of dps who afk or slack or stand in stuff or places they should not or the healers that sign as a healer and dps... well need I go on about the failings of the other roles? Maybe you should tank in the LFR is so little actual fun thats its not worth doing and all because of people who are not pulling the weight yet think that they should have short groups and perfect tanks all the time lol

Seen many raids start a healer short, or a dps in 25 man but never lacking a tank, that goes with LFR as well.

And to answer the topic I agree with what most have said, its true that tanks are abused totally and the slightest mistake or ask how to do a fight and its kicked and another tank is bought in.

Example being this week on my main was in the LFR as dps (I am a prime example) when my main spec is tank, and one of the tanks is around 500 Ilvl just able to get in, as soon as some druid with an average of 445+ spots is he's like "omg kick him he's way undergeared" and we'd not killed anything.

Funny that we got to the last boss in the wing (nazgrim) before we wiped at all, and then it was down to the usual "not killing the adds". But this is exactally one of the points that ruins the LFR.

My main is a tank and I will not tank in the LFR I have no reason want to put up with the attitude and no incentive to put up with the abuse and absurd expectation's and the total lack of any form of patience.

But so long as its like that there will always be a shortage of tanks, so be nice to your tanks and you will get faster groups

[Giscoicus]

I've been tanking LFR lately. I got called a dumbass tank once and left the group but that's not really what makes me hesitant to queue.

There are two main reasons. First of all most fights are "taunt at 3 stacks of debuff X" which are not fun to tank. I feel like a drone whose sole purpose is to keep an eye on the other tank and taunt every 45 seconds. That's not what tanking should be about imo.

The second reason is that the fights I haven't tanked yet might have some mechanics specific to tanks that I don't know about (non dungeon journal stuff), which makes me nervous about trying them the first time. (Maybe because if I fail at a mechanic I wasn't prepared for I'll get called a "dumbass tank".) When I'm trying a fight for the first time I cover up my chat window so that I don't have to deal with any harassment from the raid. However, once I've done the fight once this factor is mostly eliminated.

In SoO, the best tanking fights for me are Galakras, Shamans, Spoils, Protectors. (Haven't tanked W4 yet.. too nervous!)

Galakras - The two tanks have specific tasks. One goes up the towers and tanks mobs + tower miniboss, the other stays below and tanks mobs + miniboss. When Galakras comes down it's fast and intense, so I'm not spending 8 minutes standing by a boss waiting to taunt.

Shamans - Each tank has a boss, there's a lot of mobility. Both tanks have a chance to shine. There's a tank swap but it's an intense moment in an intense fight - read: non-boring.

Spoils - Each tank has its own side and a lot of personal responsibility for managing that side.

Protectors - no tank swaps.

Overall I believe tank swaps are a transparently artificial gimmick to force tanks to take turns. I don't like it at all. Take Thok for example - which actually isn't the worst fight to tank. What would be so bad about the tanks agreeing before the fight "I'll take the boss you get the adds"? Or *gasp* "do you have a DPS spec?" Instead of forcing tanks to take turns through gimmicks, give them the opportunity to coordinate between MT and OT roles. If there were more fights like the ones I listed and fewer fights where I'm playing taunt bitch, I'd queue more.

They are so that tanks have something to do. Because having all fights take 1 tank would be incredibly dull and limiting, they make some that require 2, like spoils. However, one of the tanks would need to keep switching specs, as well as keeping a fairly good offset, so instead they make most fights have each tank there.

A role would suck if you had to have somebody in a raid who had a fully functional offset. Its bad enough for groups changing heals, but a role that is only used for maybe...5 fights? (protectors will need 2. Shamans at least 2. Galakras 2. Spoils 2. Blackfuse 2, just because of current mechanics) would be terrible.

[hablix]

Trying to be as succinct as I can...

1. Tanking is fun, but most raid fights are not fun to tank. Tank swaps are a transparently artificial gimmick to force tanks to take turns. Instead, let the tanks coordinate between themselves who is to be MT, who is to OT, who is to tank this boss and who is to tank the next. The funnest fights to tank are the ones where tanking confers a measure of personal responsibility that goes beyond taunting at 3 stacks.

2. Gearing is a problem. There's no easy or clear way to gear up for tanking; tanking gear is role specific so a piece of tanking gear won't e.g. help you grind Timeless Isle mobs very much; tanking stats don't tangibly make you feel more powerful. The gear changes coming with WoD could help with this tremendously!

3. Abusive players are a factor, but in my view a small one. For what it's worth, before I ever tanked LFR, I would have guessed that abusive players were probably the biggest factor, but after tanking several LFRs now my perspective has changed and I would say it's the fun factor not of tanking - which is fun - but of raid design that among other things dilutes one's personal role in the raid by forcing both tanks to be equal partners in all things.

[Faroth]

Is that strictly true? In my experience in PuGs/LFG it's usually the tank that's the one being somewhat aggressive towards others, especially healers. Now I am not saying all tanks = jerks! But I can't say I personally witnessed many tanks being victimized

On the flip side, a lot of tanks also have an attitude and act like since they have a fast queue and we might be waiting if we kick them, they're free to be a total asshat to everyone.

I've seen, and initiated, vote kicks for a tank being an ass that passed in the blink of an eye.

Ironic how there's so many different causes in the world, and so many differing views in a game as well, yet everything, EVERYTHING can be improved if all people embraced the same philosophy.

Be excellent to each other.

[Giscoicus]

Would not say DPS or healers have any more or less to do than tanks tbh, there about equal, the issue is just the tanks the most critical one with zero redundancy, can lose a couple of dps and a healer and still have a fair chance of downing the boss but a tank dies and can't be rezzed then its a wipe without fail.

Seen may raids start a healer short, or a dps in 25 man but never lacking a tank, that goes with LFR as well.

And to answer the topic I agree with what most have said, its true that tanks are abused totally and the slightest mistake or ask how to do a fight and its kicked and another tank is bought in.

Example being this week on my main was in the LFR as dps (I am a prime example) when my main spec is tank, and one of the tanks is around 500 Ilvl just able to get in, as soon as some druid with an average of 445+ spots is he's like "omg kick him he's way undergeared" and we'd not killed anything.

Funny that we got to the last boss in the wing (nazgrim) before we wiped at all, and then it was down to the usual "not killing the adds". But this is exactally one of the points that ruins the LFR.

My main is a tank and I will not tank in the LFR I have no reason want to put up with the attitude and no incentive to put up with the abuse and absurd expectation's and the total lack of any form of patience.

But so long as its like that there will always be a shortage of tanks, so be nice to your tanks and you will get faster groups

Exactly. LFR groups will complain, critique and sometimes downright insult a tank when they screw up, because with the tank failing the boss just will not go down. However, on the same token, see a tank say "kick the dps below me, thats terrible damage its making the fights so much longer/hitting enrage". OH GOD NO! Following a slur of buzzwords, elitist, toxic, etc. and a couple attempts at kicking that may or may not be successful, the group continues with a stack of dps protection.

Determination can fix bad dps/heal. 2 healers and 4 dps can carry an LFR. But tanks? both need to be competent or the group is going to fail, so groups chase them out/kick them meanwhile there are 5 dps who are doing horrible that get by.

Blizzard needs to make fights actually require sense from the majority of the other roles, not small amounts, and remove determination. Maybe then people will actually get rid of bad dps/heals, and tanks wont feel singled out. This lies on the shoulders of LFR players however, to stop letting each other slack off and making only 1 role take full time and effort, something many would rather not put in if they can avoid it.

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Trying to be as succinct as I can...

1. Tanking is fun, but most raid fights are not fun to tank. Tank swaps are a transparently artificial gimmick to force tanks to take turns. Instead, let the tanks coordinate between themselves who is to be MT, who is to OT, who is to tank this boss and who is to tank the next. The funnest fights to tank are the ones where tanking confers a measure of personal responsibility that goes beyond taunting at 3 stacks.

2. Gearing is a problem. There's no easy or clear way to gear up for tanking; tanking gear is role specific so a piece of tanking gear won't e.g. help you grind Timeless Isle mobs very much; tanking stats don't tangibly make you feel more powerful. The gear changes coming with WoD could help with this tremendously!

3. Abusive players are a factor, but in my view a small one. For what it's worth, before I ever tanked LFR, I would have guessed that abusive players were probably the biggest factor, but after tanking several LFRs now my perspective has changed and I would say it's the fun factor not of tanking - which is fun - but of raid design that among other things dilutes one's personal role in the raid by forcing both tanks to be equal partners in all things.

1-I disagree, it is so that raids dont make one of their tanks have a fully functional offset. Also it would be kinda dull to have EVERY fight have adds that need to be tanked, just like if EVERY fight required a tank swap.

2-Yes, but many of the "abused" tanks are the ones who dont know their stat priority, use dps (or healer!) gear, and are neither gemmed or enchanted in any way.

3-I agree that while tanking can be fun, LFR has been so screwed over and smashed with nerfs that it isnt fun. Normal+ raids? I need to know what I'm doing. LFR? my blood shield literally absorbs everything, and Im not stacking mastery. Nothing fun about needing just 1 button to tank a fight successfully.

[Raeln]

Well LFR lets them do that. I would prefer if Siege cut out Galakras, Norushen, Paragons and Spoils, a 10 boss tier, if we got some heroics. But because the LFR crowd will never let LFR die, and Blizzard giving people options will inevitably do that, they arent making more heroic right now.

LFR has nothing to do with it.

Blizzard could have just as well made the first two wings of SoO into dungeons and scenarios, but they didn't. It's either raid, raid, raid, raid or nothing else.

LFR could still be used for the other wings that they still made as raids.

MoP should have been named MoR - Mainly Only Raids.

Im sorry, it was made for those who dont have time to raid. Nothing about skill. There is no reason it has to be piss easy, since it is made for those with time constraints, not malfunctioning brains

It's only easy when compared to the higher difficulties. If LFR was as truly as easy as many forum posters claim it is, there would never be a single wipe - ever. There are still many wipes - many enough that Blizzard had to build Determination to keep player interest in LFR from waning. If anything, LFR difficulty reminds me more of Vanilla T1 and perhaps some bosses in EQ1.

[Giscoicus]

It's only easy when compared to the higher difficulties. If LFR was as truly as easy as many forum posters claim it is, there would never be a single wipe - ever. There are still many wipes - many enough that Blizzard had to build Determination to keep player interest in LFR from waning. If anything, LFR difficulty reminds me more of Vanilla T1 and perhaps some bosses in EQ1.

LFR is piss easy. However, we do not have auras on our characters that dps for us, so we do need to actually be there pushing buttons. If you look at the mechanics that are removed, the requirements numberwise, and then ofc the fact that the more you fail the stronger you get, you see that LFR is a guaranteed clear if you stay in the group.

Dark Animus is the best example of this. DA heroic? Insane. DA Normal? lots of coordination and a minor gear check (very minor). DA LFR? Literally AoE and win. The wake didnt hurt enough to kill unless you stood in 2. The mobs had no real abilities. Matter swap was automatic. LFR is piss easy. Again it happened on Thok, because of course personal accountability is too hardcore for those with time constraints, and the inability to read the dungeon journal. People of all playstyles have done LFR at some point. Anybody who has done a higher difficulty in TBC, Wrath 25M, Cata or Mists can tell you that LFR really has no challenge whatsoever other than that of vanilla raids, herding cats and getting them to stay focused for a total of 5 minutes.