(If you want faster queues, be nice to your tanks!)

[Fagatronics]

And how is this blizzards problem?

Long queues = frustrated customers = loss of profits

This is a problem created by the community. They can try to fix it, but fixing it requires they either bust out a stick and start punishing people or a carrot to try to make them behave better. In the end a good chuck of the problem is there because of peoples behavior.
What do you suggest blizzard does to solve the problem?

Blaming players is the easy answer and one that will not solve the problem. For me, it's hard to solve a problem I only have partial information to. When Blizz says part of the problem is community based... OK well what's the other part of the problem? What is tangibly fixable? Answering a complaint with a complaint shouldn't be how a business runs. It's how children bicker.

Players: "Why are queues so long for LFR?"
Blizz: "Why are you guys such assholes to tanks?"

It's not answering the question, it's deflecting it. A reward/discouragement system may do the trick. Blizzard has been socially engineering players since the start of wow. Though difficult, this is not an insurmountable task to solve.

[Buxton McGraff]

If you ask the tanks there's no way they're going to say people are jerks to them because they're bad.
The only time I'm aggressive towards a tank is when they come in with 0 knowledge of fight without asking, or are in blues/dps gear.

[Dessan]

I tank in normal modes atm and I still don't tank LFR even to replace the couple 522's I have just because I know that I don't need to do anything wrong for someone to start hurling abuse my way. So I can't imagine someone newer to raiding will go a second time if they don't have the right people there for their first attempts.

[Giscoicus]

Long queues = frustrated customers = loss of profits



Blaming players is the easy answer and one that will not solve the problem. For me, it's hard to solve a problem I only have partial information to. When Blizz says part of the problem is community based... OK well what's the other part of the problem? What is tangibly fixable? Answering a complaint with a complaint shouldn't be how a business runs. It's how children bicker.

Players: "Why are queues so long for LFR?"
Blizz: "Why are you guys such assholes to tanks?"

It's not answering the question, it's deflecting it. A reward/discouragement system may do the trick. Blizzard has been socially engineering players since the start of wow. Though difficult, this is not an insurmountable task to solve.

I agree that it is deflecting it, but the community is part of the problem. The LFR players bitch and moan about literally everything. They get bosses to have massive health nerfs, raid wide damage nerfs, determination even existing. They made it so 2/3 roles can do next to nothing and get carried by the few players working hard.

Blizzard bent to them because Blizzard will please the minority. Now they are demanding blizzard somehow fixes it by offering tanks special rewards and stuff. Tanks will que for LFR as dps and get their tank gear because LFR players have pushed Blizzard to make dpsing LFR that simplistic

[PuppetShowJustice]

I tanked the last wing of LFR last night. First time joining queue as a tank since ToT. The problem that drove me away didn't change.

The other tank didn't share a language with me, didn't know the fight, and could not be convinced to taunt swap with me.

What am I supposed to do? I can't solo tank Blackfuse the entire time and I have literally no help or way to ask for help from the other tank.

Solution = don't put yourself in a horrible position by sticking with guildmates in non-LFR.

[nightfalls]

Blaming players is the easy answer and one that will not solve the problem. For me, it's hard to solve a problem I only have partial information to. When Blizz says part of the problem is community based... OK well what's the other part of the problem? What is tangibly fixable? Answering a complaint with a complaint shouldn't be how a business runs. It's how children bicker.

Players: "Why are queues so long for LFR?"
Blizz: "Why are you guys such assholes to tanks?"

It's not answering the question, it's deflecting it. A reward/discouragement system may do the trick. Blizzard has been socially engineering players since the start of wow. Though difficult, this is not an insurmountable task to solve.

Exactly this. As a business and game designer at this point you need to be aware that on the internet people will generally be douches to each other. Look at this forum, that's why they have semi-elaborate moderation, super moderation, administration, and infraction/ban/point systems in place. It's so you can have some sort of system to keep people in line without being like "GTFO permabanned" completely (because that, in itself, will just drive away viewers).

Trying to blame the community is like environments trying to just tell people to be "nice to the trees" and beg people to "not litter" but do nothing else... it's not gonna happen, not without systems in place.

[Giscoicus]

Exactly this. As a business and game designer at this point you need to be aware that on the internet people will generally be douches to each other. Look at this forum, that's why they have semi-elaborate moderation, super moderation, administration, and infraction/ban/point systems in place. It's so you can have some sort of system to keep people in line without being like "GTFO permabanned" completely (because that, in itself, will just drive away viewers).

Trying to blame the community is like environments trying to just tell people to be "nice to the trees" and beg people to "not litter" but do nothing else... it's not gonna happen, not without systems in place.

Well the community stamps its feet, shouts insults and threatens to quit. Blizzards shareholders NEED those players to stay, so pretty much whatever the "casual" community says needs to happen happens.

"Nerf Naz! People wont get off the boss and we keep wiping to Ravegers and enrage"

"Just kick them?"

"NO! This is too hard for casuals we are stacking determination because our dps is too low."

"Why havent you kicked them"

"Stop being elitist, just because somebody has a life and not a 550 ilvl doesnt mean we should kick them. The fight is broken and too hard fore casuals"


couple days later Naz lost his nads. On Blizzards part, the VTK system is broken, but I promise you many many many LFR groups kept trying and stacking debuffs instead of kicking those who tunneled or just didnt meet the dps requirements. Blizzard can only resist them so much before the heads and shareholds say no, please these people, we need the sub total to look good.

The community now has created this hellhole in which many players cannot stand to be. It is uninteresting, watered down and full of scummy people. And what do they want Blizzard to do? find a way to get people back into LFR. Oh but if Blizzard made LFR take brainwaves from the majority of players to clear, and not just 5-6 of them the tears would flow again.

[PuppetShowJustice]

"Nerf Naz! People wont get off the boss and we keep wiping to Ravegers and enrage"

"Just kick them?"

"NO! This is too hard for casuals we are stacking determination because our dps is too low."

"Why havent you kicked them"

.....you ever tried vote-kicking more than one person in an LFR?

"You can't do that shortly after combat."
"That player can't be kicked for another [absurd number] minutes."
"You have already blahblahblah random error message"

[Giscoicus]

.....you ever tried vote-kicking more than one person in an LFR?

"You can't do that shortly after combat."
"That player can't be kicked for another [absurd number] minutes."
"You have already blahblahblah random error message"

I know, and I said the VTK system is broken as well. But really, go do a Naz LFR that the group wipes to enrage. Link meters, point out people below...60k? Thats generous tbh. Say kick these people. Watch the insults flow, possibly angry whispers or the group just does nothing and pulls again, possibly somebody says something about determination saving them.

[nightfalls]

Nazgrim did need to be nerfed, but because of the nature of LFR. It's not meant to be a "progression" system, it's meant to be a "go have some fun, get some loot." A berserk wipe is particularly bad because that's 10-20-30 minutes wasted of your life. You should always rather wipe to mechanics, but Nazgrim mechanics where 1) healing mobs need to be focused, or 2) DPS need to be stopped are extremely brutal for such groups which they will be.

By making LFR 25 man (again I believe it REALLY needs to become 10 man), you're completely erasing any potential for coordination and for leadership. A 10 man group is much more likely to reward people for trying (or kick people that don't), and also rewards leaders who organize and explain things. A rabble/mob will have rabble/mob mentality. I guarantee, even with more tanks/raid ratio, if LFR were made 10 man (2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 DPS) eventually DPS will see shorter queues, not longer.

Or just remove LFR completely, I wouldn't be opposed, but some would be.

[Deleted]

Is it too much to ask that you have a quick read-over of the dungeon journal or even icy-veins or something? You're the lynchpin, the keystone of the group and you can't be bothered to research what it is you need to do?

I've said it before, but as tanks are the lynchpins of the group as you say, it'd make sense to reward them better than the rest of the group. That'll increase your tank quality enormously. Otherwise you pay peanuts and get monkeys, as the saying goes.

[Deleted]

Be nice? That gets you and the tanks nowhere.

If they are garbage, it's your responsibility to tell them. In order for a bad tank to get better, they first need to know that they're bad so they can learn to get better. It's not anyone but the tanks fault.

I'm sure if we just took out Lfr there would be less bad tanks.

[Therealmagoo]

There is a shortage of tanks because tanking takes no thought process what so ever so ppl choose a different roll instead of falling into a coma of bored that is known as tanking.

[Psidum]

And I've already said what fixes LFR; ban the asshats. You insult other people, get reported, Blizzard investigates - your ability to join LFR gets removed. If you proceed to do so outside LFR, you get permanently banned. No second chances, no "but Billy is 12, he doesn't understand what he's saying!" -lenience. Permanent ban.

Problem solved.

I have not agreed with most of what you have said in this thread but i will stand behind you on this 100%. If there is consequence for people actions then things will improve, currently there is nothing. Personally i would prefer a specialized keyboard that electrocutes people when they act like a douche but you can't always get what you want.

[Giscoicus]

Nazgrim did need to be nerfed, but because of the nature of LFR. It's not meant to be a "progression" system, it's meant to be a "go have some fun, get some loot." A berserk wipe is particularly bad because that's 10-20-30 minutes wasted of your life. You should always rather wipe to mechanics, but Nazgrim mechanics where 1) healing mobs need to be focused, or 2) DPS need to be stopped are extremely brutal for such groups which they will be.

By making LFR 25 man (again I believe it REALLY needs to become 10 man), you're completely erasing any potential for coordination and for leadership. A 10 man group is much more likely to reward people for trying (or kick people that don't), and also rewards leaders who organize and explain things. A rabble/mob will have rabble/mob mentality. I guarantee, even with more tanks/raid ratio, if LFR were made 10 man (2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 DPS) eventually DPS will see shorter queues, not longer.

Or just remove LFR completely, I wouldn't be opposed, but some would be.

And it wasnt progression. The requirements for Naz were well within that of timeless geared players. However, that assumes they are just average skill level, which many in LFR are not. Yea, it could have been nerfed, but even still groups are wiping over and over and refuse to kick bad players instead they just get determination high enough to literally faceroll.

Many players in LFR find challenging content unfun, god knows why they do LFR for gear since they will never go higher but to each their own. However, their unwillingness to fix it themselves is why LFR keeps getting worse and worse. If people had came to the forums pleading Blizzard to fix the vote kick system because the group cannot remove bad players who are wiping the group, Blizzard would have done that. But no, they wanted Blizzard to make it easier, because many ARE bad players who would be kicked.

A good player in LFR is rare. Much of the good dps are just very geared, and actually quite low for their gear. The fact that somebody with 496 can easily out dps somebody in 528 shows how little people try or how bad they are, and the LFR community wants Blizzard to fix it. And any problems that come from making LFR pitifully boring. And problems that come from try to convince raiders to come into LFR, and find that they aren't there to carry the group, just contribute. And then they will want Blizzard to make it so raiders never want to do LFR, then they will ask for more nerfs, then fix the fact that it is boring as bricks, then again, get in higher geared players to help.

- - - Updated - - -

Wrong, LFR tuning doesn't require great gears or excellent skills to complete. Have you considered LFR to be a learning tool instead of the final show off of skill/gear? You get better by playing more and Blizzard has put LFR in game to entice people to play more (aka get better). The toxic LFR environment is from players expecting too much, not Blizzard's lack of actions.

50k dps is NOT TOO MUCH. If Blizzard wants players to get better they wont nerf the heck out of every fight when it takes mechanics. Yes, you use LFR to learn, but there is a point where it is just you being deadweight and leeching off those trying. Honestly even in timeless gear, sub 70k is just you being bad in some way. Even with just a 476 weapon.

- - - Updated - - -

I have not agreed with most of what you have said in this thread but i will stand behind you on this 100%. If there is consequence for people actions then things will improve, currently there is nothing. Personally i would prefer a specialized keyboard that electrocutes people when they act like a douche but you can't always get what you want.

So do you consider calling to kick the bad dps being a douche? What about screaming at the other tank when you have asked 15 times for a taunt with no response. How about people just dying to avoidable mechanics, and wanting them kicked?

There is being insulting, then there is hurting somebodies feelings. Im sorry if you are offended when I say you are bad and your dps sucks, but if you are the moonkin just using moonfire on GCD then you are bad and your dps sucks. If I go and start cursing at all the players who dont have 540+ gear for being terribad shitters, and saying "kick the scrubs under 200k" then I am being a douche. However, where to draw the line?

[nightfalls]

And it wasnt progression. The requirements for Naz were well within that of timeless geared players. However, that assumes they are just average skill level, which many in LFR are not. Yea, it could have been nerfed, but even still groups are wiping over and over and refuse to kick bad players instead they just get determination high enough to literally faceroll.

1) A kick requires a vote. If most players are bad chances a vote goes through are slimmer.

2) Vote kick protection. Should fucking never have been added to the game that or Blizzard has to be WAY the fuck more transparent about how it works. Instead we have all rumors and contradictory statements from Blizzard about it, with a total refusal to acknowledge exactly what it does.

[Giscoicus]

1) A kick requires a vote. If most players are bad chances a vote goes through are slimmer.

2) Vote kick protection. Should fucking never have been added to the game that or Blizzard has to be WAY the fuck more transparent about how it works. Instead we have all rumors and contradictory statements from Blizzard about it, with a total refusal to acknowledge exactly what it does.

That what I said. If the players actually controlled themselves and policed themselves, the VTK system would have been overturned long ago because of how broken it is. But no, instead they keep crying to Blizzard for a multitude of bandaids on whatever they are sad about. If Blizzard didn't nerf stuff at the drop of a hat then groups would eventually start kicking people. Remember Ultraxion? no determination, eventually the group set a minimum and began kicking. Ofcourse the VTK system would need to be changed because the limits and protection are ridiculous, but for once in the history of the game players actually policed themselves. After an Ultraxion wipe, those who died to HoT were kicked, those with bad dps were kicked. Now? OH LOL DETERMINATION LETS TRY 5 MORE TIMES UNTIL IT IS LITERALLY FACEROLL. And since determination was accepted so well by the LFR community, and many groups decide stacking it is the preferable solution to fixing the group, the VTK system wont be fixed and more people will hate what LFR has turned into, since 5.0 to now it has become terrible.

[Deleted]

The PUG community in general is awful and tanks are able to feel entitled when they have <10 minute queues. Everyone is to blame.

[TyrantWave]

50k dps is NOT TOO MUCH. If Blizzard wants players to get better they wont nerf the heck out of every fight when it takes mechanics. Yes, you use LFR to learn, but there is a point where it is just you being deadweight and leeching off those trying. Honestly even in timeless gear, sub 70k is just you being bad in some way. Even with just a 476 weapon.

Just one minor thing I wish to nitpick here.

Full 496 (So that includes weapon and trinkets), with proper itemisation, you'll expect around 90~120k dps on characters if they play perfectly.

Timeless gear is anything but itemised, and a 476 weapon is a severe detriment to DPS. Also, players will rarely play close to perfectly in LFR.
But dropping down to a 476 weapon and piss poor itemisation, at 496 I'd expect a perfectly played character to range around 80k (SPriest and Afflock at that gear) to around 110k (Frost DK, who's not very weapon dependant)

Honestly, I set ~60k dps as the limit for getting on my nerves in LFR. Movement, new to the fight, lots of factors, but even just following the rotation in the spell book should be enough @ ilvl 496 (With a 476 weapon) should still give around 60k dps (Say, for an SPriest, who are just abysmal at lower gear levels single target)


I'm tempted to give my mage & rogue a full timeless set - weapon and armour, 496 + 476 weapon (And enough upgrades to hit 496 exact), with gems & enchants (Windsong in this case). Just see how they do on malkorok following the rotation in the spell book only. That's what is expected of them.

[Giscoicus]

Just one minor thing I wish to nitpick here.

Full 496 (So that includes weapon and trinkets), with proper itemisation, you'll expect around 90~120k dps on characters if they play perfectly.

Timeless gear is anything but itemised, and a 476 weapon is a severe detriment to DPS. Also, players will rarely play close to perfectly in LFR.
But dropping down to a 476 weapon and piss poor itemisation, at 496 I'd expect a perfectly played character to range around 80k (SPriest and Afflock at that gear) to around 110k (Frost DK, who's not very weapon dependant)

Honestly, I set ~60k dps as the limit for getting on my nerves in LFR. Movement, new to the fight, lots of factors, but even just following the rotation in the spell book should be enough @ ilvl 496 (With a 476 weapon) should still give around 60k dps (Say, for an SPriest, who are just abysmal at lower gear levels single target)


I'm tempted to give my mage & rogue a full timeless set - weapon and armour, 496 + 476 weapon (And enough upgrades to hit 496 exact), with gems & enchants (Windsong in this case). Just see how they do on malkorok following the rotation in the spell book only. That's what is expected of them.

I said 70k because I put challenge modes somewhere around like 50-70k from dps (depending on spec, Frost DK wreck face) and that is with everything 463. Even with a 476 weapon, there is alot of pure stats from the 496 gear, even the one with only 1 secondary stats. Of course that is with reforges, enchants and some gems, but that is something that everybody should be doing, and not doing so is just you not trying.

I dont expect 90-120k dps from those in timeless gear. However, doing less than those in 463 gear is just not trying.

Definately take a video of your rogue/mage in the gear in LFR. Show only the spells in your spellbook on your bar, and break 80k dps. Do it for the future of casual endgame content not being faceroll easy.