PvE vs PvP gear disparity

[torment3d]

This thread really makes me appreciate Warhammer Online's model of PvP and PvE gear only having the distinction that one is earned in PvP and one is earned in PvE. The lack of any special PvP or PvE stats is fantastic. The way they have it balanced, the tanks have ways of protecting DPS, healers typically spec defensively no matter what because healing spells scale less with willpower (the healing version of WoW's intellect) and more with just mastery/character level), and tanks only decide how much initiative they need (the stat that determines their chance to be critically hit, simplified so that 0% chance = 0% chance to be crit by a PvE mob and in PvP equal to 0% + the attacking player's outgoing crit chance).

[Deleted]

This thread really makes me appreciate Warhammer Online's model of PvP and PvE gear only having the distinction that one is earned in PvP and one is earned in PvE. The lack of any special PvP or PvE stats is fantastic.

problem is that will force progressing pve players do pvp to obtain missing pieces of gear since they will be as good as pve items. and then passive resilence from gear must be changed with every tier. another thing about work involved to obtain item. none will convince me that killing even first heroic boss is easier than 10 arena wins at low mmr

[Itisamuh]

Why does everyone who likes PvP think they need to be best at everything? Enjoy being second class? Your choice of play will never be the main focus of the game no matter how much you want it to be.

Nobody thinks PvP gear should be the best at everything. We think it should be the best at PvP. World PvP is PvP.

It should seem so obvious for Blizzard to make PvP gear best for all PvP, and simply not allow the gear into PvE instances.

[Grishnaar]

Nobody thinks PvP gear should be the best at everything. We think it should be the best at PvP. World PvP is PvP.

It should seem so obvious for Blizzard to make PvP gear best for all PvP, and simply not allow the gear into PvE instances.

Well, if PvE is that much higher in ilvl, than there's no problem with current system, when it comes to PvE instances.

PvP gear is better in instanced PvP, so that too is alright.

IMHO, I don't mind PvE gear being better in the world against NPCs. But against players, PvP gear should at least be the same against players.
Why? because that way both sides have advantage in their own field , while remaining balanced in the world.

Yes, some might say "Well, PvE still has advantage due to vs world NPCs, but I'm pretty sure PvPers dont mind that (I dont *shrug*)

EDIT: Point is, if I PvP and get gear through PvP, I should NOT be weaker than PvE player when it comes to ANY kind of PvP fight, no matter where it is. Same? Sure. Weaker? No.

[Deleted]

even if damage will be balanced pve will be slightly ahead with higher hp due to additional stamina on gear.

[Fluttershy]

world = pve environment.

Sucks you can't gank defenseless people anymore using your welfare epics.

[torment3d]

problem is that will force progressing pve players do pvp to obtain missing pieces of gear since they will be as good as pve items. and then passive resilence from gear must be changed with every tier. another thing about work involved to obtain item. none will convince me that killing even first heroic boss is easier than 10 arena wins at low mmr

The rest of my post that you neglected to quote explained why... and it pretty much explained that I'm not saying it could happen in WoW because of the major differences. Context is a bitch.

[Deleted]

The rest of my post that you neglected to quote explained why... and it pretty much explained that I'm not saying it could happen in WoW because of the major differences. Context is a bitch.

no it doesnt, you can balance damge and survability for gear it's not a big deal, but making it equaly effective in both environments you force big group of players to content they dislike in order to be competitive in content they desire.

[Grishnaar]

even if damage will be balanced pve will be slightly ahead with higher hp due to additional stamina on gear.

Well, personally, I don't mind a slight advantage, even though I'm PvP.

world = pve environment.

Sucks you can't gank defenseless people anymore using your welfare epics.

No need to be rude.
Who said anything about ganking?

It's like saying sux you can't drive through red light, while the rest of us are talking about having same red/green light time as the one to our left and right.

[Trubo]

I'm pretty sure this is a wrong approach for the reason you mentioned. Getting high ilvl gear only to have it downgraded everywhere except PvE instances isn't the solution, everyone would get mad and with a reason! xD

Why not just do the math and add more PvP power on all PvP gear so that it's on par with PvE gear?
So in the end PvE gear is still better against NPCs, PvP gear still is best in Instanced PvP and both are equal in the world against players.

EDIT: The only problem I can see atm is that players do more dmg in Instanced PvP than intended.
I guess if that's the case, then simply downgrade PvP gear for instances aswell *shrugs*

I wouldn't like it myself but forcing all gear to be capped at a certain level (most likely whatever the honor or conquest gear of the time is) for world stuff still gives an advantage to pvp gear assuming pvp stats are not included in the item budget. Now if the change that jediguy linked goes through then it might not give pvp gear a clear advantage but should still be slightly ahead due to the pvp stats. Either way I think we all can agree that a PvP scenario should be won by the person who outplays the other, not the person who massively outgears the other.

[Zetsumei]

If you can't kill a PvE noob because of gear difference, then you are no true PvPer.

[Srg56]

"What is this, I dont even...."

I'm sorry, I'll have to ignore your post, cause it brings no arguments and only looks down on PvP as it was something lesser.

But it is. Something lesser. Something allot lesser. Think of all of the effort put into creating the world, writing the lore, the voice acting, the instances, the bossfights, the soundtrack, think about how every expansion is sold as "You're going to another continent to fight another ancient evil" and such. It's not sold as "yeah you get another box filled with sand and some poles you can dance around"

Compared to the PvE content this game has, your enjoyed content is nothing more than a tacked on minigame in a half-assed effort to keep you spending 15 a month. Your "part" of the game, when compared to the meta game, which was from the beginning, a RPG (role playing game, not MOBA 4 digit number representing your self worth) is little more than a joke, yet the majority of players in this game have to suffer their classes being homogenized into oblivion and losing all flavor for the sake of 'balance' in your little kiddy playground where you try to kill each other while hiding behind little poles.

When they(the devs) tried to make world pvp more engaging you laughed at their efforts, mocked them and told them to eff off because there were no 4 digit numbers involved or big purple flying 310% dildos for rewards, and told them to focus on balancing arenas, because "nobody cares about world pvp", and "world pvp is dead", and "LOL world pvp? u srs?" After so many years, they took your word for it, and separated itemization and gearing philosophy for ONE expansion based on your 'advice' and now you're whining because you can't completely dominate and gank JonnyMCPVE "keyboardturner" Jenkins while he's fighting onyxia reskin no. 931023 in the world pve content you so much ridicule every chance you get.

That is really everything this whine is reduced to. Now we have PvE kiddies killing dwagons fine, and pvp kiddies killing eachother fine, each in their own playgrounds, but the pvp kiddies want more. They always want more. Because not only do the pvp kiddies want their ice cream, they want JonnyMCPVE's icecream too, and they want to bash his face in while taking his icecream while mocking him for his choice of playstyle, case in point:

This is such a senseless argument that I've created a canned response for PvE heroes like you. It's more than you deserve:

As for the "the world is a PvE environment" nonsense, that's blatantly false. Tell me, what constitutes a "PvE environment?" Computer-generated monsters that can attack you, right? But uh-oh! That's not all there is to the "world," is it? There are players out there who you can fight and who can kill you. Smells like PvP to me. The truth is that the "world" is a mix of both PvP and PvE, so tell you what: how about we make PvE gear best-in-slot for killing computer-generated monsters in the world and make PvP gear best-in-slot for fighting players in the world? I lost you, didn't I? It's a complicated concept for a PvE hero to understand, I know, but just consider for a moment that "Player-Versus-Player" gear should actually be the best sort of gear for fighting other players and that "Player-Versus-Environment" gear be the best sort of gear for fighting the computer-generated environment. I have yet to see anyone explain how this is an unfair or irrational suggestion.

Whether you like it not, PvE hero, your undeserved advantage is about to be stripped from you. Reference the lead PvP developer's comment I linked. You have made no investment into PvP gameplay, so you should not dominate in PvP gameplay. Deal with it. Go back to your scripted PvE fights with addons holding your hand and telling you how to kill computer-generated dragons.

Take it from Lord Vader here, if you enjoy playing in your own kiddy sandbox and enjoy pressing buttons to kill onyxia reskins in your "designated pve area" you're a braindead little twerp, who needs addons to help you even remember how to breathe, so of course you're deserving of a reminder in the form of repeatedly being sent to the GY of the fact that you, you inferior subhuman, are supposed to lick the boots of the PvP Arena Master Race 2.4k+++ yoloswagqt Übermensch.

[Deleted]

There is hope! All the PvE heroes will have their undeserved advantage stripped from them in the expansion. PvP gear will once again be BiS for all PvP - period - as it should be.

The lead PvP designer on WoW said in a recent tweet, "Current pitch would be conquest and heroic gear have same ilevel. PvP Power becomes part of the budget."

Reference: https://twitter.com/holinka/status/400020059609116672

Wow.. Thank god.

/thread right there.

You're out in the environment ofcourse the heroic PvE-gear is going to be stronger PvE = Player vs Environment.

There are plenty of buffs you can pick up around the isle that gets you up on those hp-levels even with your PvP-gear on.

So tired of PvP-heroes who wants to have everything outside of their mini-game.

Any contested zone is a PvP zone.

[BlissfulBlithe]

This is such a senseless argument that I've created a canned response for PvE heroes like you. It's more than you deserve:

As for the "the world is a PvE environment" nonsense, that's blatantly false. Tell me, what constitutes a "PvE environment?" Computer-generated monsters that can attack you, right? But uh-oh! That's not all there is to the "world," is it? There are players out there who you can fight and who can kill you. Smells like PvP to me. The truth is that the "world" is a mix of both PvP and PvE, so tell you what: how about we make PvE gear best-in-slot for killing computer-generated monsters in the world and make PvP gear best-in-slot for fighting players in the world? I lost you, didn't I? It's a complicated concept for a PvE hero to understand, I know, but just consider for a moment that "Player-Versus-Player" gear should actually be the best sort of gear for fighting other players and that "Player-Versus-Environment" gear be the best sort of gear for fighting the computer-generated environment. I have yet to see anyone explain how this is an unfair or irrational suggestion.

Whether you like it not, PvE hero, your undeserved advantage is about to be stripped from you. Reference the lead PvP developer's comment I linked. You have made no investment into PvP gameplay, so you should not dominate in PvP gameplay. Deal with it. Go back to your scripted PvE fights with addons holding your hand and telling you how to kill computer-generated dragons.

Couldn't agree more. If you're wearing PvE gear and killing monsters, expect to be better than the PvP geared player; but as soon as one appears you both engage in combat, the one who excels in PvE fights should NOT excel in the combat between the two players.

The state of it today is definitely much worse than it was in Vanilla.

- - - Updated - - -

If you can't kill a PvE noob because of gear difference, then you are no true PvPer.

There's a difference between skill, like how in Vanilla, raid geared players were still able to be killed because the disparity between them wasn't as large as today.

Then there's today, where it almost entirely relies on gear. Just the other day, a PvP geared Moonkin starts dotting me up, BAM Ascendance and he's dead. That's not my classes fault because the Moonkin would've been able to survive normally. It's the gears fault.

[Raiju]

There's a difference between skill, like how in Vanilla, raid geared players were still able to be killed because the disparity between them wasn't as large as today.

Then there's today, where it almost entirely relies on gear. Just the other day, a PvP geared Moonkin starts dotting me up, BAM Ascendance and he's dead. That's not my classes fault because the Moonkin would've been able to survive normally. It's the gears fault.

1 on 1 there's no reason (timeless isle buff excluded) he couldn't cc you through ascendance.

[BlissfulBlithe]

1 on 1 there's no reason (timeless isle buff excluded) he couldn't cc you through ascendance.

I was 555 as opposed to his 522 and killed him in seconds. That's my gears fault, not my classes. I'd have been able to do the same on any other class. If however, my PvE gear was 522, he definitely would've had the upperhand but that's simply not the case and exactly what we're arguing about.

[Grishnaar]

But it is. Something lesser. Something allot lesser. Think of all of the effort put into creating the world, writing the lore, the voice acting, the instances, the bossfights, the soundtrack, think about how every expansion is sold as "You're going to another continent to fight another ancient evil" and such. It's not sold as "yeah you get another box filled with sand and some poles you can dance around"

Compared to the PvE content this game has, your enjoyed content is nothing more than a tacked on minigame in a half-assed effort to keep you spending 15 a month. Your "part" of the game, when compared to the meta game, which was from the beginning, a RPG (role playing game, not MOBA 4 digit number representing your self worth) is little more than a joke, yet the majority of players in this game have to suffer their classes being homogenized into oblivion and losing all flavor for the sake of 'balance' in your little kiddy playground where you try to kill each other while hiding behind little poles.

When they(the devs) tried to make world pvp more engaging you laughed at their efforts, mocked them and told them to eff off because there were no 4 digit numbers involved or big purple flying 310% dildos for rewards, and told them to focus on balancing arenas, because "nobody cares about world pvp", and "world pvp is dead", and "LOL world pvp? u srs?" After so many years, they took your word for it, and separated itemization and gearing philosophy for ONE expansion based on your 'advice' and now you're whining because you can't completely dominate and gank JonnyMCPVE "keyboardturner" Jenkins while he's fighting onyxia reskin no. 931023 in the world pve content you so much ridicule every chance you get.

That is really everything this whine is reduced to. Now we have PvE kiddies killing dwagons fine, and pvp kiddies killing eachother fine, each in their own playgrounds, but the pvp kiddies want more. They always want more. Because not only do the pvp kiddies want their ice cream, they want JonnyMCPVE's icecream too, and they want to bash his face in while taking his icecream while mocking him for his choice of playstyle, case in point:



Take it from Lord Vader here, if you enjoy playing in your own kiddy sandbox and enjoy pressing buttons to kill onyxia reskins in your "designated pve area" you're a braindead little twerp, who needs addons to help you even remember how to breathe, so of course you're deserving of a reminder in the form of repeatedly being sent to the GY of the fact that you, you inferior subhuman, are supposed to lick the boots of the PvP Arena Master Race 2.4k+++ yoloswagqt Übermensch.

Ofc WoW is more PvE than PvP. Any game is. I can't disagree.
But that's only an argument if I was to say PvP is bigger part of the game.
I didn't say that.

Also, I can simply say "I played LFR, it's easier than even <1500 Arena and I get higher ilvl items." Which I did. And which I have.
But that's not the point here.

Therefore, that (valid in general) argument is irrelevant, because what I (we, PvPers) said is that we would like to be close to equal when fighting other people.
Nothing else.

I don't want them to nerf PvE gear. Why would I?

I (we?) was specifically mentioning the difference in gear/power of the character ONLY when fighting other players.

I also said that PvE should be stronger against NPCs.
I didn't even say PvP should be better than PvE in world, but (close to) equal.

[Raiju]

I was 555 as opposed to his 522 and killed him in seconds. That's my gears fault, not my classes. I'd have been able to do the same on any other class. If however, my PvE gear was 522, he definitely would've had the upperhand but that's simply not the case and exactly what we're arguing about.

I agree with the issue but your example is a case of a bad pvper who would've lost in some theoretical 553 pvp gear too. Not hindering you during ascendance? Yeah next you'll say sitting in bladestorm is fine (1v1 remember)

[Deleted]

I was 555 as opposed to his 522 and killed him in seconds. That's my gears fault, not my classes. I'd have been able to do the same on any other class. If however, my PvE gear was 522, he definitely would've had the upperhand but that's simply not the case and exactly what we're arguing about.

We argue about person not using cc or defensives to survive some bursting on him. Gear difference between you is almost same as between honor and conquest gear.

[Snorlaxi]

Couldn't agree more. If you're wearing PvE gear and killing monsters, expect to be better than the PvP geared player; but as soon as one appears you both engage in combat, the one who excels in PvE fights should NOT excel in the combat between the two players.

This.

PvP gear should give the edge in a PvP situation. PvE gear should give the edge in a PvE situation. How can people even disagree with this statement? It's like disagreeing with 2+2=4.

If a player attacks another player and they engage in combat, it is a PvP situation, it doesn't matter where they are.