PvE vs PvP gear disparity

[Raiju]

There aren't "much worse" PVE pieces for this slot for this spec.

The proc does scale, yes, but with a specific stat on gear (spell power for ele) and not the sum of all stats, so, yes, 8% in heroic gear becomes 10+% in LFR gear. I agree that the proc for melee is different, but I disagree that it is much less useful for them. It's not about AOE, forget it. It's about added damage on your target.

Timeless. Hows that 1500 hit chest gonna work for you in pvp?

Oh and melee rarely keep high uptime on a target. The cloak will proc on first abilities (read: gapclosing) and is auto wasted, then further procs will usually meet similar ends.

[rda]

Timeless. Hows that 1500 hit chest gonna work for you in pvp?

Oh and melee rarely keep high uptime on a target. The cloak will proc on first abilities (read: gapclosing) and is auto wasted, then further procs will usually meet similar ends.

Agree about hit. As I said before, a PVE guy having to get to a higher hit cap than a PVP guy is the only saving grace here, it is the only way for a PVP guy in full conquest to be slightly better gear-wise to a PVE guy in upgraded LFR PVE gear.

On melee uptime. Please forgive me for asking this, but - have you PVP'd on melee, that is, did you do arenas other than for cap? That melee have reduced uptime in PVP compared to PVE isn't new, lol, they are compensated for that (granted, the balance is... not great). Generally, what matters is burst.

[Raiju]

Agree about hit. As I said before, a PVE guy having to get to a higher hit cap than a PVP guy is the only saving grace here, it is the only way for a PVP guy in full conquest to be slightly better gear-wise to a PVE guy in upgraded LFR PVE gear.

On melee uptime. Please forgive me for asking this, but - have you PVP'd on melee, that is, did you do arenas other than for cap? That melee have reduced uptime in PVP compared to PVE isn't new, lol, they are compensated for that (granted, the balance is... not great). Generally, what matters is burst.

Yes, but the pvp cloak isn't compensated for it. That is the point here. The procs often get wasted due to dropped uptime and proccing off ranged abilities since its designed for an environment where it always hits.

[rda]

Yes, but the pvp cloak isn't compensated for it. That is the point here. The procs often get wasted due to dropped uptime and proccing off ranged abilities since its designed for an environment where it always hits.

The compensation is in added burst. The cloak gets that compensation automatically. The proc can be wasted, yes. Same as it can be wasted for ranged.

[Raiju]

The compensation is in added burst. The cloak gets that compensation automatically.

the proc isnt a single hit, its a 'channel' so if you drop uptime, you drop that 'burst'. It also procs so frequently for what I would imagine are sub 20k hits in pvp before cd's that I can't see it having a huge effect.

[rda]

the proc isnt a single hit, its a 'channel' so if you drop uptime, you drop that 'burst'. It also procs so frequently for what I would imagine are sub 20k hits in pvp before cd's that I can't see it having a huge effect.

It's the same as proc-on-damage trinkets (and yes, effects from trinkets also don't affect your damage when you drop uptime - that's why they are trying to LOS or CC a guy which has just popped everything). Yes, some take on-use trinkets whenever possible, but many take automatically proccing trinkets and line up burst whenever they see a proc, working kind of in the reverse direction, proccing trinkets are by no means bad.

That the proc is frequent makes it better for sustained damage, decreasing RNG. If it procced less frequently, it would have been wasted more often, but on the other hand, the proc - taken alone - would be a last hit in more cases than now. These things largely equalize each other.

[Grishnaar]

World = PvE
Isle = PvE

BG = PvP
Arena = PvP

You still have the advantage in PvP content.



You have to actually defeat bosses to obtain PvE gear. You don't just log in and die a couple times for points that you spend to get the best gear.

PvPers on the other hand can do just that by afking themselves to full sets of the best PvP rewards. You want to talk about fairness and balance. How is that fair or balanced?

Fighting a player ANYWHERE in the game is PvP. If someone doesn't understand that, that we can't continue the conversation because there's no point (I'm talking about anyone, not (just) you in particular )

We have advantage in PvP instances. You have advantage in PvE instances. Both arguments nullified and irrelevant.

You have advantage in World vs ALL NPC's, monsters, etc.. We AGREE with that.
You have advantage VS REAL players in PvE gear. We DON'T agree with this.

We would like to be EQUAL to PvE gear outside of instances while you still have advantage VS NPCs, monsters, etc.

That is MORE than fair.

[Wildtree]

PVE content = PVE gear prevails
PVP content = PVP gear prevails

WPVP Zones (Wintergrasp, Tol Barad etc) = Scale the damn gear down to make it equally strong. Follow the example of CM..

Open world.....
Now it becomes tricky. The open world could be seen as a gigantic PVP zone, and that's not false. But, and that's not false either, it's also the largest PVE zone.
So we gotta dig deeper here.... The open world appears to be mandatory to leveling up the toons we play. Which indicates that it's more a PVE Zone than it is a PVP Zone, because even PVP toons have to level up.. So for the open world, the gear could stay untouched. Which gives PVE gear an edge over PVP gear, but not in every case. A good geared PVP toon is still superior to a shitty geared PVE toon.

That's my proposal.

[Bluesftw]

i didnt do any serious pvp in mop since, lets face it, its dogshit, but having top tier pvp gear being equal to previous, outdated pve tier is stupid. i mean c'mon 522 and you cant even upgrade it... while orange cloaks are 608 ilvl and 2/2 heroic warforged is 580 ilvl... its beyond stupid.

[Deleted]

Better yet, have PVE Power on raiding gear which only works in raids, similarly to how PVP Power works for PVP encounters, and have raiding gear and PVP gear be the same ilvl. No gear scaling is necessary after that.

^This solution deserves its own thread on official forums imo.

PVP Power - disabled in specific PVE ONLY zones (raids, dungeons)
PVE Power - disabled in PVP ONLY zones such as arenas and bgs
PVP Power + PVE Power enabled in WORLD zone (because its not purely pvp nor pve zone)

ILVLs difference would still be there - in *world zone* (where both has their appropriate powers enabled):

Heroic PVE > BG PVP
LFR PVE < Arena PVP
Heroic PVE = Arena PVP
LFR PVE = BG PVP

[Deleted]

Because their welfare epics that they coasted to should be good enough to do everything! They should be able to quest in it, dungeon in it, raid in it, kill everyone in it, because it takes real skill to afk in BGs!

Hello. I want to PvP in my PvP gear. Any time enter a PvP combat I am PvP'ing. Your logic is retarded. If you think it is too easy to obtain PvP gear that should be your issue, and not advocating for putting PvP players off the World map.

But thankfully Blizzard already knows that the current system is extremely flawed and costing them subscribers, so they will be fixing it in the next expansion.

I enjoyed farming 2000 scrubs on Timeless Island while I was decked out in SoO HC PvE gear. Most fun was the PvP heros who thought they were superman with their high Arena rating, sporting 400k hp vs my 750k.

They died faster than I could blink. And the amount of rage in general chat and whispers were so cute and adorable.

Until you queue up for arena and get your ass kicked there.

[rda]

Open world.....
Now it becomes tricky. The open world could be seen as a gigantic PVP zone, and that's not false. But, and that's not false either, it's also the largest PVE zone.
So we gotta dig deeper here.... The open world appears to be mandatory to leveling up the toons we play. Which indicates that it's more a PVE Zone than it is a PVP Zone, because even PVP toons have to level up.. So for the open world, the gear could stay untouched. Which gives PVE gear an edge over PVP gear, but not in every case. A good geared PVP toon is still superior to a shitty geared PVE toon.

^^ In other words, you think the current situation with Timeless Isle, etc, should stay the same.

I disagree, of course. Two guys fighting each other is PVP wherever this happens, and a guy in PVP gear should have an edge over a guy in PVE gear.

Here's one simple way to make this happen:

Suppose you cast a spell and that spell hits another player. You know that the damage you will deal to the player is going to be lower than if you were hitting a mob, right? Because the player has resilience. Good. Now, take that place in code that takes resilience into account and make it also scale the PVE pieces on you down, similarly to how it happens in arenas, even if you are not in an arena, but rather anywhere - in the world, in an instance, wherever.

Done.

Two problems: (a) it might be expensive to do the scaling for each spell computation-wise - solveable (guaranteed, the only thing a server has to do - if it doesn't already do it - is to store a temporary copy of your gear in memory scaled down to PVP levels, that's it), (b) might require an additional rule for heals - solveable as well, eg, via PVP flag (if you have PVP flag on or are healing a target with PVP flag on, they get a PVP-scaled heal, otherwise they get a PVE-scaled heal).

PS: I'd prefer having PVE Power (see earlier posts), but the above solution could work as well and doesn't introduce new stats.

[Xanderz]

The best gear is purchased by Conquest points, which you can receive easily by afking / botting, as most people have observed when they enter a random BG.

I wish it took actual skill to get the best PvP gear as well, but that isn't the case. You might have a leg to stand on if you could only receive the best PvP gear from RBGs.

To get the best PvE gear, on the other hand, does take actual skill, dedication and coordination. So why shouldn't it trump PvP gear in PvE zones? PvP gear clearly trumps PvE gear in PvP zones.

What you are asking for it to be the best at everything just because you have more time to afk in BGs than other people. That is selfish, stupid and really not fair to people who actually play the game.

I didn't realize you got much Conquest from random bg's and afking. I was under the impression that Conquest Points only came from Arena's and RBGs aside from the once daily win that you get a small amount of conquest for.

And Skill and Coordination? You dont need that in an Arena or RBG? Please tell me again how hard it is to look at DBM and react when it tells you to.

[Vyce223]

make pve gear downscale to 522 when entering Timeless Island = problem solved.

I'm sorry WHAT??!?!? Make PVE gear scale down to PVP ilvl while doing PVE content. How does that even make sense?

[Xanderz]

I'm sorry WHAT??!?!? Make PVE gear scale down to PVP ilvl while doing PVE content. How does that even make sense?

Why is the world, especially on a PVP server (which essentially to me means World PvP Server) considered PvE content? PvE content is Raiding and Dungeons. PvP content is BG's and Arena. The World is a middle ground, where on a PvE server, it is PvE, and on a PvP server it is PvP.

Does no one else make this comparison?

[Vyce223]

Why is the world, especially on a PVP server (which essentially to me means World PvP Server) considered PvE content? PvE content is Raiding and Dungeons. PvP content is BG's and Arena. The World is a middle ground, where on a PvE server, it is PvE, and on a PvP server it is PvP.

Does no one else make this comparison?

Your missing the biggest actual part of PVE in this game. While Dungeons and raids may be majority of endgame the other 89 current levels in the game you find yourself doing QUESTS. Timeless island is full of exactly that Quests it even has 5 raid bosses on it. As for the whole pvp server thing that everyone always banks on, not many pve servers are as popular as pvp servers in terms of getting raiders believe it or not. Every top US server at least is you guess it... PVP.

[Baracuda]

https://twitter.com/holinka/status/405102576468635648 "Our goal is for PvP gear to be better than heroic gear for PvP in the outside world."
https://twitter.com/holinka/status/404445292184883201 "For Warlords, we want to do a much better job balancing PvE and PvP gear in the world"

[Xanderz]

Your missing the biggest actual part of PVE in this game. While Dungeons and raids may be majority of endgame the other 89 current levels in the game you find yourself doing QUESTS. Timeless island is full of exactly that Quests it even has 5 raid bosses on it. As for the whole pvp server thing that everyone always banks on, not many pve servers are as popular as pvp servers in terms of getting raiders believe it or not. Every top US server at least is you guess it... PVP.

That doesn't matter in the slightest to what we are arguing here.

The real problem at hand is that PvP is player vs. player. Any time you attack a player, you are engaging in PvP content, regardless of where it is. The fact that I am at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage in player vs player combat because i dont raid is odd to me. In any PvP combat, a pvp geared player should have equal footing, or be at the advantage because their gear is designed to be appropriate for this type of situation.

Before the "learn to play better, or a good pvp player would have the skill to still win" comments come out, i'll go ahead and say maybe you are right. I'm not the best player. I previously was above 2200, i've played with good players, but i'm not the best. But when someone in PvE gear has 50+ ilvl's on me, 300k more hp than i do, and my healing gear doesn't do as much (i play a resto druid) because my pvp power is completely useless in that situation, something isn't right. I can get away most times if its 1v1. If i get gang raped while running around, whatever. That is just annoying but it happens, thats why i'm on a pvp server.

[Danur]

To everyone who likes PvE gear dominating the world PvP scene... from Blizzard on the topic!

"PvP gear will have more stats to choose from, and less worrying about hit caps! PvP Power will likely still exist to make sure PvP gear is powerful without being more powerful than PvE gear in PvE. Additional PvP changes are beyond the scope of this discussion, but we do want to make sure PvE gear doesn’t outstrip PvP gear for world PvP."

Your reign of dominating everyone despite piss-poor play will soon be over.

[primalmatter]

To everyone who likes PvE gear dominating the world PvP scene... from Blizzard on the topic!

"PvP gear will have more stats to choose from, and less worrying about hit caps! PvP Power will likely still exist to make sure PvP gear is powerful without being more powerful than PvE gear in PvE. Additional PvP changes are beyond the scope of this discussion, but we do want to make sure PvE gear doesn’t outstrip PvP gear for world PvP."

Your reign of dominating everyone despite piss-poor play will soon be over.

I don't really get where people think afk pvp gear= skill

Manged to grind out fire-watcher and let me tell you most *pve* players tend to know more about pvp then there battleground counter parts...

I'm not saying this would hold true vs a glad but a lot pvpers kinda suck at pvp. Every class with the exception of locks and mages that had full pvp gear fought the exact same way. Every pvper opened the same way reacted the same way... it was like fighting a raid boss just more predictable...

Look honestly I think the days where you get to insta win in pvp gear is over. We might see it be closer next expansion but the whole kill a pver in a opener since you have magic gear is coming to its end accept it and move on.