Blizzard is making heroics harder than MoP : Good or Bad?

[Drilnos]

If I don't have to do them very often, sure. Why not. If I have to chain run them as was the case in every expansion except MoP, no thank you.

It should be kept in mind that they could be made harder than solving a Rubik's cube while wearing boxing gloves in a lightless, airless hole in the ground and they still would be easy by the time the expansion was a couple patches in.

[PrairieChicken]

Again if that comes true it will piss off everyone, if it is pre-nerf VP difficulty.

Baddies will whine too hard and quit while hardcore people will whine it's too easy

So I think it will either come out as a faceroll wrath/4.3 difficulty (more difficult than panda ones but still easy) or they will make it bit more difficult and lose million more subs

[Osmeric]

Again if that comes true it will piss off everyone, if it is pre-nerf VP difficulty.

Baddies will whine too hard and quit while hardcore people will whine it's too easy

It depends on whether there is a reasonable progression path for everyone.

Also, pre-nerf VP is a lot different from pre-nerf Stonecore or GB. heroic VP actually got buffed a bit in those early changes.

[metasine]

The same people in this thread that are loving this change will be the same people who will cry for nerfs when wod is released. Cataclysm 2.0

[Feluna]

Awwwweeeeessssooooommmmeee!

I would really like it if they would have the same difficult as the Cata Dungeons in the beginning. They were challenging and really fun.

[Captiosus]

At no point did Blizzard say every single sub losses was directly from the difficulty of heroics. Some players viewpoints of Cata launch seem to be very narrow as to what changed and how those changes interacted with each other.

At no point has Blizzard ever stated why there are sub losses so I'm failing to see what your point is.

In the first 9 months of Cata, subs went in the tank even though there was arguably more content than early Wrath AND we were coming off a prolonged content drought. The skewed difficulty level of heroics combined with the vitriol of the community and the 40 minute to 1 hour queues drove people away.

Please don't say there weren't other options to gear because that's untrue. You could run the three 85 normals for rep and, combined with crafting, be raid geared just fine without doing a heroic. There were options beyond heroics and people still left in droves.

[Keristrasza]

Well they did that in Cataclysm, can't say it worked out well, guess we shall see:P

This is what I was thinking here, they did this in cata and openly admitted that it was one of the many reasons for the great amount of sub-loss. Now they are doing it again .... I don't see how they learned any sort of lessons from Cata as they said they did. Looks like I'll be playing a DPS again for WoD and not a healer, with how morons are in the LFD? Not worth the time and effort to even try to heal.

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Maybe it would be better to make Normal 5-man as the proper gearing path to raiding, as put Heroics as something more optional, thus enbaling them to be quite harder and require a pre-made.

I actually like that idea, making heroic dungeons extremely hard but not mandatory for gearing would make it so people could have their challenging content, but at the same time let people skip it who don't care for that kind of content.

[PrairieChicken]

It depends on whether there is a reasonable progression path for everyone.

Also, pre-nerf VP is a lot different from pre-nerf Stonecore or GB. heroic VP actually got buffed a bit in those early changes.

Prenerf vortex was nightmare(For typical LFG baddies who whined about cata heroics). First boss? chain AoE damage destroying healers followed by second boss with million tornadoes that knock you off the platform and kill you if you get hit. Third boss trash pack was immune to CC(in the triangle), and LFG of course features idiots that gets frizzled to death. The "buff" was bug fix that allowed people to cheeze the first boss by stacking in the middle during tornado phase.

[Keristrasza]

Why make heroics and normal dungeons easy at level cap? Its a waste of space. Now they can utilize normal dungeons for the players who want an easier route and heroics for the player who wants a challenging route.

Because unfortunately, blizzard makes heroics mandatory in the gearing path to even do LFR. Now assume they did your idea, it could work however the complaints about having to go from a raid setting like LFR BACK to a 5 man path just to reach another raid environment would drown the forums out. Yes I know everyone complains about everything, but people (including that 1%) already nerd rage about being "forced" into LFR - Flex - Normal just to do the heroics, there is no way they would agree to LFR - Heroic dungeon - Normals etc.

For all the complains about casuals whining they want instant gratification right now, I find it humorous that certain groups of people cry about the same shit on a different scale. (Not you mind you, I'm being general in this statement, and not saying you are complaining obviously.) They want into the content THEY want right away without needing to go through X-easy content first, but rather go straight to the hard stuff. Yet it's not ok for people less savvy with hard content to complain they don't want a difficult heroic dungeon because it gets between them and the LFR which was designed FOR That kind of player to start with.

[PrairieChicken]

Because unfortunately, blizzard makes heroics mandatory in the gearing path to even do LFR. Now assume they did your idea, it could work however the complaints about having to go from a raid setting like LFR BACK to a 5 man path just to reach another raid environment would drown the forums out. Yes I know everyone complains about everything, but people (including that 1%) already nerd rage about being "forced" into LFR - Flex - Normal just to do the heroics, there is no way they would agree to LFR - Heroic dungeon - Normals etc.

For all the complains about casuals whining they want instant gratification right now, I find it humorous that certain groups of people cry about the same shit on a different scale. (Not you mind you, I'm being general in this statement, and not saying you are complaining obviously.) They want into the content THEY want right away without needing to go through X-easy content first, but rather go straight to the hard stuff. Yet it's not ok for people less savvy with hard content to complain they don't want a difficult heroic dungeon because it gets between them and the LFR which was designed FOR That kind of player to start with.

We will have timeless tag-a-rare game in WoD. Dungeons will not be mandatory for LFR.

[Osmeric]

Because unfortunately, blizzard makes heroics mandatory in the gearing path to even do LFR.

Not clear they're going to do that in WoD. Not clear AT ALL.

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Prenerf vortex was nightmare(For typical LFG baddies who whined about cata heroics). First boss? chain AoE damage destroying healers followed by second boss with million tornadoes that knock you off the platform and kill you if you get hit. Third boss trash pack was immune to CC(in the triangle), and LFG of course features idiots that gets frizzled to death. The "buff" was bug fix that allowed people to cheeze the first boss by stacking in the middle during tornado phase.

The first boss had a strategy where everyone could stack in the middle and avoid the vortices. This strategy was disabled. The last boss also had changes made to it that made it harder (Static Cling was added, and some adds were spawned, starting in 4.0.6.)

[Mormolyce]

I'm not surprised, I understand why they made MoP heroics easier since they had CMs to take their place but even so I felt they went too far making them easy. A nice balance between Cata and MoP level difficulty would be ideal.

I mean I loved Cata heroics but clearly they weren't for everyone.

I want heroics to be as hard as they were in TBC days... cataclysm was nice, but it still wasn't as hard.

I dunno why people say that, Cata heroics were way harder than TBC.

TBC heroics were mainly hard because of the trash, the fact classes were poorly balanced, many tank classes didn't have the tools to properly hold AoE threat and overall the level of player skill was much lower.

[Deleted]

I dunno why people say that, Cata heroics were way harder than TBC.

TBC heroics were mainly hard because of the trash, the fact classes were poorly balanced, many tank classes didn't have the tools to properly hold AoE threat and overall the level of player skill was much lower.

While all your points are correct, disagree with the difficulty ranking. The often mentioned Magisters Terrace even with the highly random Arena type "boss" was hard but quite doable if you didn't insist on bringing two DPS warriors and a DPS shaman, hc Shattered Halls was a complete joke. If you got agro as a priest healer, you died. Period. Even people who were able to sleepwalk thru Karazhan regularly wiped several times in that drek hole. And those were guild groups, no PUGs.


On topic, I find it hilarious they didn't learn their lesson from the beginning of Cata. Even if the resident school dropouts again claim "Peoply didn't quit over hard dungeons", the suits at AB won't be fooled again.

[Paula Deen]

On topic, I find it hilarious they didn't learn their lesson from the beginning of Cata. Even if the resident school dropouts again claim "Peoply didn't quit over hard dungeons", the suits at AB won't be fooled again.

They specifically said today it will be Cata Levels of difficult with more focus on learning as you go meaning no more crap where people just plain don't understand, it will be big and red and fiery if its bad. Personally I liked Cata launch dungeons with friends/guildies but hated it with pugs. If they make them that difficult with emphasis on random dungeon finder.... then thats great actually. Also the reason people quit was because you needed those dungeons to progress. In Warlords from what we can tell the Normal End Game Dungeons will be progression toward LFR, and the Heroics will probably drop gear similar to LFR or a little less than it. I like that change as well, only great things can come from that.

[nightfalls]

As long as "harder" Doesn't just mean CC. I felt so bad when we had to kick DKs and warriors in Blackrock caverns in Cataclysm at the start for lack of CC options.

I don't mind CC, but I don't think that long-duration CC should be required and I like that Blizzard has moved away from using it in PvE situations. Simply because it slows combat down and isn't very fun. Short-duration, non-breaking CC (read: aoe and ST stuns and interrupts) I think should be emphasized more, and already is in CM's.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I'm not sure why people hate CC. Though I guess its the same reason people hate other stats like hit that don't make their numbers necessarily higher.

[StrayFox]

Because unfortunately, blizzard makes heroics mandatory in the gearing path to even do LFR.

Not really, if they make level 100 normal dungeons drop gear appropriate to do LFR then you don't have to do Heroics. Heroics are supposed to drop item level gear similar to LFR.

Blizzard knows that the reason why so many people hated Cata heroics is because:

A: You had to do them to gear up.

B: You had to do them through LFD.

If blizzard makes heroics hard again, most people assume they will make them a optional, but faster, way to gear up as well as making it a pre-made only type of que... similar to heroic scenarios.

Of course if they kept the same model they have today and just made heroics harder that would be a bad idea, but Blizzard isn't going to make past mistakes. I assume they will make LEVEL CAPPED normal dungeons drop gear for LFR and Heroics drop gear for Normal Raiding. And to keep having hard heroics they will possibly add more dungeons each patch, similar to Halls of Reflection in Wrath.

[stomination]

Good.

At this point I do heroics, as a tank, as frost. Why? Because nothing can kill me. I can solo the heroics. They're disgustingly easy and they have been since the start of the expansion.

That and there is no reason to do them anymore due to scenarios.

[Bisso]

They could make it harder than an Heroic Raid, it doesn't really matter when it ends up being outdated after people get raid gear (which you can get from crafting, from scenarios, from outdoor bosses and from LFR, and regular raid).

If it's hard, some people will complain it's too hard, if it's easy, other people will complain it's too easy. The real problem with heroic dungeons is that their lifespan is very limited, so in he end, it doesn't really matter.

[Deleted]

Harder heroics only mean something if the entire "gear tier" is set. TBC was best here. Wotlk had potential due to the epics from endbosses & fraction dudes but lost due to justice gear. Cata was just terrible, the items in 5man were boring as hell and felt not worth doing them (ZA/ZG was better but still bad due to valor gear). MOP was worst of all - they screwed justice & valor gear with reputation attunement / daylie quests & the items felt just boring / <1% epic drop chance wtf.