Blizzard is making heroics harder than MoP : Good or Bad?

[Gorthezar]

Voted Awesome because the game needs to be harder so bad players quit or actually have to learn to play the game to get any amount of decent gear be it heroic dungeons or harder content

[Radoria]

This is a wonderful thing. There's nothing "heroic" about heroics anymore. Roughly half the heroics I run now don't even stop for a break between mobs. I've seen several tanks pull when the healer has less than 10% mana and no one even complains because...10% mana is all you need for those cake bosses.

On a somewhat related note, and maybe this deserves it's own thread, I dunno, and I don't know exactly how much work this would take on Blizz's part, I can only assume a lot. Anyway...one thing I really hate about the whole game in general is how every mob is always in the same place. I would like to see the mobs in different places, and much more pats walking around in the dungeons. I'm sure it would take plenty of work but I really hate how I know where every tough mob is before I even start the instance.

[Doompanther]

Honestly, making heroic dungeons more difficult is a null matter imo. As long as heroic dungeons are a stepping stone into raid content then I'm fine. BUT if Blizz goes back to TBC design and makes heroic 5 mans more difficult than raids then something has gone wrong. The progression IMO should be: Normal dungeons < Heroic dungeons <= Tier 1 raids (LFR/Flex or whatever they end up calling it) < Tier 2 raids (you know, actual raids) < heroic Tier 2 raids.

So yeah, make heroic dungeons more difficult, but make sure that they remain a stepping stone into actual raids.

[nekobaka]

As long as "harder" Doesn't just mean CC. I felt so bad when we had to kick DKs and warriors in Blackrock caverns in Cataclysm at the start for lack of CC options.

As a resto druid that solo queued the heroics at launch, the groups I was in did not have to kick warriors or DKs in any of the Cata heroics.

I dunno why people say that, Cata heroics were way harder than TBC.

TBC heroics were mainly hard because of the trash, the fact classes were poorly balanced, many tank classes didn't have the tools to properly hold AoE threat and overall the level of player skill was much lower.

Because there are those of us who feel that way. You are explaining mechanics that players had to deal with and decide they are irrelevant because players dont have to deal with them anymore and therefore BC heroics are easy is a lame argument. What maters is at the time with the game mechanics of the time BC heroics are considered harder all around by a number of players and even Blizzard employees. If you are arguing that trying to bring back exactly BC heroic design in current game mechanics then yes the BC heroics would be easier. The mechanics are easier due to changes that make dealing with the mechanics easier and even trivializing those mechanics. To bring back the punishing trash of BC would likely require even bigger groups and the preference for three CC capable DPS which isnt going to happen.

All the difficulty of BC heroics was not in the trash. On boss fights players still had to get out of the fire, LoS the boss, spread out, CC, meet enrage timers, deal with adds, and a number of other mechanics that wasnt trivial. Most of the heroic run breakups I have seen was due to failing to bosses and not the trash.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

As a resto druid that solo queued the heroics at launch, the groups I was in did not have to kick warriors or DKs in any of the Cata heroics.

As a prot pally, who also solo queued heroics at launch I concur. I didn't kick a single person for lack of CC. We always worked with what we had and smart players that knew their classes worked through it.

[stomination]

Bye bye subscriptions, Blizzard doesn't seem to have learned from early Cataclysm.

Perhaps they lost ppl when the heroics were easy mode too. And have noticed that most ppl looking for something quick and easy would just do a scenario instead.

[Infernix]

Free 90 + Hard Heroics = LOL BYE

[Radoria]

Free 90 + Hard Heroics = LOL BYE

LoL...that's a really good point honestly. I never really thought of that before. I'm all for the harder heroics but I don't like the free 90...and the 2 really don't go well together. To this day I still think it's dumb as hell that DKs get the first 55 levels for free. That makes absolutely no sense.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

LoL...that's a really good point honestly. I never really thought of that before. I'm all for the harder heroics but I don't like the free 90...and the 2 really don't go well together. To this day I still think it's dumb as hell that DKs get the first 55 levels for free. That makes absolutely no sense.

I feel like yous hould be able to learn to use CC for your class, even while given a free 90. You have 10 levels.

[Sansnom]

I fail to see any real major benefits in having hard heroics dungeon. Why? Seriously why? You want a challenge? Why not do the challenge mode or some other form where the gear is normalized. If it is hard, then it becomes a barrierto gearing. Not just the average or bad players, but possibly for good players.

Would you want to do a hard heroics with a group of random people? Would you? Case in point. Heroic Halls Of Reflection. With a decent group, it is relatively straight forward. With a bad group, it is wipe fest. Tanks or healer zones in via LFD. 9/10 times they leave immediately. They don't trust the group because the dungeons is hard. Some may stay but leave after one wipe. This is hard, so wipe can happen. Now you need to queue again and possibly repeat the same process of people just leaving dungeon. Do you want to do this? Most you just want to gear up and hit the raid ASAP.

Don't trust LFD, form your own group. Welcome back spamming the trade chat in the city for a group. What can you do in the meantime? Nothing because you are spamming for a group. With LFD, at least you can play the game while in the queue but can you trust a bunch of random people in a hard heroics?

So, again, is this really what you want to return to?

[Mormolyce]

While all your points are correct, disagree with the difficulty ranking. The often mentioned Magisters Terrace even with the highly random Arena type "boss" was hard but quite doable if you didn't insist on bringing two DPS warriors and a DPS shaman, hc Shattered Halls was a complete joke. If you got agro as a priest healer, you died. Period. Even people who were able to sleepwalk thru Karazhan regularly wiped several times in that drek hole. And those were guild groups, no PUGs.


On topic, I find it hilarious they didn't learn their lesson from the beginning of Cata. Even if the resident school dropouts again claim "Peoply didn't quit over hard dungeons", the suits at AB won't be fooled again.

Wasn't that because MGT was added in Sunwell and therefore tuned for current gear whereas people in full raid gear were used to overgearing regular heroics? Same thing happened in ICC with HoR, and Cata with ZA/ZG.

Also was it the bosses or the trash that were hard? In my mind bosses with complex mechanics is real difficulty, whereas managing aoe trash pulls is more just improper tuning and/or classes lacking a full toolkit. Or low skill on the part of the players - I mean sure Pally AoE is easier but it's not like tab sunder is rocket science. If trash is harder than bosses then something is wrong.

But yeah I'm sure there are individual dungeons that are exceptions, I was just saying in general.

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Free 90 + Hard Heroics = LOL BYE

The new free 90s actually go through a starting area (sort of like DKs) to rapidly teach them their class. Plus they have another 10 levels and some gearing until they get to 100.

People overestimate how much levelling 1-90 teaches you anyway. Plenty of people come out of that knowing fuck all about their class.

- - - Updated - - -

I fail to see any real major benefits in having hard heroics dungeon. Why? Seriously why? You want a challenge? Why not do the challenge mode or some other form where the gear is normalized. If it is hard, then it becomes a barrierto gearing. Not just the average or bad players, but possibly for good players.

Would you want to do a hard heroics with a group of random people? Would you? Case in point. Heroic Halls Of Reflection. With a decent group, it is relatively straight forward. With a bad group, it is wipe fest. Tanks or healer zones in via LFD. 9/10 times they leave immediately. They don't trust the group because the dungeons is hard. Some may stay but leave after one wipe. This is hard, so wipe can happen. Now you need to queue again and possibly repeat the same process of people just leaving dungeon. Do you want to do this? Most you just want to gear up and hit the raid ASAP.

Don't trust LFD, form your own group. Welcome back spamming the trade chat in the city for a group. What can you do in the meantime? Nothing because you are spamming for a group. With LFD, at least you can play the game while in the queue but can you trust a bunch of random people in a hard heroics?

So, again, is this really what you want to return to?

I'm fine with this actually. And once people gear up it'll become less and less of an issue, just like Cata heroics (though less hard).

[Xtacle]

People over exaggerate the usage of CC in the unnerfed Cata heroics, the only instance that you would ever see CC on were those Tol'vir mobs in the floating sky place (cant remember the name) that patrolled through pyramids that provided magic immunity. Other than that it was never required, you could make do with what you had.

[Raiju]

People over exaggerate the usage of CC in the unnerfed Cata heroics, the only instance that you would ever see CC on were those Tol'vir mobs in the floating sky place (cant remember the name) that patrolled through pyramids that provided magic immunity. Other than that it was never required, you could make do with what you had.

Maybe if you were using a paladin healer, or were going back there after being geared. resto shamans were *literally* oom after 3 strong heals / 6-7 small heals.

[Deleted]

I dont like the idea of dividing players into categories even before raiding. Because thats exactly what they are planning to do with the new difficulties. However i totally agree that measures should be taken against the irresponsble LFR player. I believe that the introduction of Flex was enough to deal with this

[Mezzolith]

I don't mind a challenge in heroics but I don't want to spend 3 hours in a LFD group for a slim chance at a piece of shit blue.

[Stonecloak]

This is harsh, but whoever is apposed to this change can take a hike. I don't even care if the game loses a whole 100 subs. Be happy with your scenario's, or go play the bazillion other easy games out there.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I fail to see any real major benefits in having hard heroics dungeon. Why? Seriously why? You want a challenge? Why not do the challenge mode or some other form where the gear is normalized. If it is hard, then it becomes a barrierto gearing. Not just the average or bad players, but possibly for good players.

Would you want to do a hard heroics with a group of random people? Would you? Case in point. Heroic Halls Of Reflection. With a decent group, it is relatively straight forward. With a bad group, it is wipe fest. Tanks or healer zones in via LFD. 9/10 times they leave immediately. They don't trust the group because the dungeons is hard. Some may stay but leave after one wipe. This is hard, so wipe can happen. Now you need to queue again and possibly repeat the same process of people just leaving dungeon. Do you want to do this? Most you just want to gear up and hit the raid ASAP.

Don't trust LFD, form your own group. Welcome back spamming the trade chat in the city for a group. What can you do in the meantime? Nothing because you are spamming for a group. With LFD, at least you can play the game while in the queue but can you trust a bunch of random people in a hard heroics?

So, again, is this really what you want to return to?

But, bad players have normal dungeons. This is like asking why have Heroic Raids.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't mind a challenge in heroics but I don't want to spend 3 hours in a LFD group for a slim chance at a piece of shit blue.

But, you can just find your own group of people you trust I guess. LFD is optional.

[warlocx]

Harder heroics + random group = fail
I really dislike having to create a party for short/small content. It takes longer then actually doing it.(my server is dead as f'k)

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Harder heroics + random group = fail
I really dislike having to create a party for short/small content. It takes longer then actually doing it.(my server is dead as f'k)

I think thats the point of some of their group finder changes, my friend. Its on the front page, I would read some of it.

But yeah, I randomed BC heroics all the time, same with Cata heroics. Most of the time it went well.

[Molestron]

"Our current goal is to make WoD heroics similar to the difficulty level you had in Vortex Pinnacle heroic for example."

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8756?page=4#63

Cause Vortex Pinnacle was hard. Are they joking ?! If they want difficulty they should look at Grim Batol hc.