Blizzard is making heroics harder than MoP : Good or Bad?

[Pua]

I wonder if this is why Ghostcrawler bailed out. Get off the train before it wrecks.

I still think he was pushed.

Yes, the guy who oversaw LFD, LFR, repeatedly simplified talents, cutting of class spells, etc. is running away from dumbing down. That makes sense

Pretty much my sentiments, actually.

[bufferunderrun]

Clearly at Blizzard have short memory they seem to not remember what happen last time they raised the heroics difficulty out of the blue

[Osmeric]

Pretty much my sentiments, actually.

IMO, if anything, signs point to them continuing to simplify game play. I think they're being driven in that direction by the inability of most players to handle the complexity they've been given (and possibly by implementation headaches, like the lag from some of the spells in MoP). It will be amusing to see how long people continue to blame GC if this happens.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

The biggest drop is subs started with early Cata: check
The big "come back to hard heroics" + LFD happened in early Cata: check
Logic.


I think you completly missed the concept of "game teaching people how to play it". If people HAVE to look for info outside of game to play it then then something is not right. And that info that is in game isn't displayed well enough for a new player who is hit by tons of new information when they join the game.

Also, given nowadays there is information and people fail at the game while back then there was hardly any information and people still killed stuff, it shows a lot about the comparission of difficulty.


The problem is not gating but Normal having too little incentive. Plus they did not teach anything about what will hit you as a new player in heroics :P


What you described might have been the case with some % of people who already were playing the game. It doesn't apply to new players for quite obvious reasons :>

Do you not understand what a fact is?

Its also funny you keep stating that neither the Cata or TBC heroics were hard, and CC wasn't used.. then when we talk about sub drops you say they are too hard... okay...

I also said there is info IN THE GAME. Stop lying and pretending like there isn't info in the game. There is the infinite amount of information from people. The dungeon journal, class info in your spell book, tool tips, training scenarios... and NO, there is nothing wrong with using information outside of the game. Gamers have been doing this for years in the way of guide books. I still have some from the 90's.

Incentive? If heroics are too hard, move to normals. The gear in normals shouldn't be better than heroics for the sake of incentive.

And it still applies to new players. The leveling is now so easy and steam roll, they expect that in heroics too.

You haven't given a good argument for heroics to be easy. Blizzard is making every dungeon have a level 100 normal version, this makes it very possibly easy to have a harder heroic.

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Just to add that Cata/WotLK heroics were hard because people refused to learn to use all the spells their classes had - while in TBC most of the classes actually did not have proper CC/threat drop/Defense tools.

You just can't take a class and learn 10% of that class's spell repertoire and then expect to win against difficult opponents (pvp and pve).

I don't think most is a good adjective there. And if your tank is doing his job, you don't need threat drop.

[CaptainV]

Clearly at Blizzard have short memory they seem to not remember what happen last time they raised the heroics difficulty out of the blue

This without a doubt.

[7seti]

This without a doubt.

Or just maybe they've realised you can't please everyone with one difficulty setting.

Would be nice if the OP could edit in "There will be level 100 normal-mode dungeons" in huge letters so people stop freaking out.

[LTCrystallite]

I like my face-roll dungeons. Just go in, 5 minutes later, go out. Fast Valor farm

It'll still be like this for skilled players, though

I remember Cata heroics at first launch with a good group (friends/brother) weren't bad at all, you just had to control a couple mobs and then act like the bosses were mini raid bosses. The only thing keeping us from completing them ridiculously fast was the health jump they did for Cata.

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Good.

At this point I do heroics, as a tank, as frost. Why? Because nothing can kill me. I can solo the heroics. They're disgustingly easy and they have been since the start of the expansion.

Heh, you're like me. If the content is too easy, do unorthodox things.

For example, I play an Enhancement Shaman and wanted to finish getting the rest of the heirloom pieces, so i just queued as healer for quick queues, and just HST/HTT/storm heals/A.Guidance'd everyone super easy while we blasted through as fast as possible. It's fun when queuing for randoms and you get that one tank that is speed running dungeons for quick VP/JP and everyone just follows along, especially when they're 100% fine with you being 70/30 DPS/healer.

[thedingleberry]

Couple problems i see with dungeon design.

1) There are optional bosses in some. All bosses need to be killed to complete or it tend to lead to impatient tanks skipping bosses in LFG that some people need to gear out. (Ex: the 3 of the 4 bosses at the top of the Halls of Origination were often skipped, the 3rd boss in Throne of tides was often skipped, The puppy in Blackrock Caverns and the 3rd boss in Grim Batol with the dragon was often skipped).
2) I think current xpac/tier dungeons should be challenging, but they need to be nerfed significantly once the next xpac comes out otherwise while you are leveling, you will inevitably get stuck on your alts running these old dungeons with noobs that just joined the game and never did them before. If they have actual mechanics, these people tend to fail at them because of inexperience.

[LTCrystallite]

As far as more difficult heroics, I'm all for it, because we now have more content than ever, so all players can find some way to progress and gear up. Professions, dungeons, scenarios, heroics, etc for the starter gear and then onto LFR and beyond. And then, if blizz does something like they did with Timeless Isle, there's even more ways.

I'm pretty damn excited for WoD.

[Skeppio]

Hope they'll be a bit harder than MoP heroics at least. I also hope they do a bit more with Scenarios, maybe fit them in as a good starting point for gear, then level 90 normals, then Heroic Scenarios, then Heroics, etc. It could work.

[Nerevar]

Good, at least this time it will be what it sounds like - heroics, instead of faceroll loot run. I miss early cataclysm dungeons

[Deleted]

For an experienced player NOTHING in WoW will ever be hard. And Vanilla was pretty easy on its own. The fact is, Vanilla and TBC were doable without much experience.

You are completely, utterly - 100% - wrong. In factual ways.

To assume that a player due to experience has a infinite skillcap and no need to learn/has no difficulties with any itteration or skill moment (i.e nothing in Wow ever will be hard) is a logical fallacy. Just by plain default.

And no, vanilla and TBC was not easy in it's own. I'd like to see you do Shattered Halls Heroic timed run pre-nerf without experience. Or any sunwell boss. Hell, even some Black Temple or Mount Hyjal bosses.

I would suspect that many of your remaining points are also wrong - based on that you are arguing poorly, with assumptions rooted in logical fallacies. I.e, things that are plain wrong and twisted/convoluted to your sense of reasoning.

[Toxigen]

Good - there should be challenging 5 man content outside of "take super-easy shit and make it a time trial / speed run".

[Raiju]

You are completely, utterly - 100% - wrong. In factual ways.

To assume that a player due to experience has a infinite skillcap and no need to learn/has no difficulties with any itteration or skill moment (i.e nothing in Wow ever will be hard) is a logical fallacy. Just by plain default.

Have to agree with this, I've seen people playing since pre-wrath who struggle with normal mode raids on a personal level

[Lilija]

Its also funny you keep stating that neither the Cata or TBC heroics were hard, and CC wasn't used.. then when we talk about sub drops you say they are too hard... okay...

I think you have some issues with reading comprehension :P None of those were hard for an experienced player. And TBC was much easier for a new player than Cata was.

I also said there is info IN THE GAME. Stop lying and pretending like there isn't info in the game.

Once again, reading comprehention issues. I've never said there isn't info but that it is presented in a boring way and many new people will not get to some information unless they stumble upon it (and this isn't anything new nowadays but back in the day game punished people less for not knowing stuff). And since the more info is needed to play the game effectivly, the more visible it is how bad at teaching people how to play WoW is. There are ways for the game to teach people stuff in the best way possible - practice. But the game isn't doing it properly. Expecting people to read thru outside sources and guides in order to progress thru main progression path is wrong.

Incentive? If heroics are too hard, move to normals. The gear in normals shouldn't be better than heroics for the sake of incentive.

And who said it should be better? If the gear from normals was enough to for example get into the easiest raids then it would be enough of an incentive to do them. And heroic gear should be a booster for people who are interested in harder raids. Otherwise the progression path will not work.

nd it still applies to new players. The leveling is now so easy and steam roll, they expect that in heroics too.

Like leveling in the past was hard :P It took a lot of time but wasn't hard.

You haven't given a good argument for heroics to be easy. Blizzard is making every dungeon have a level 100 normal version, this makes it very possibly easy to have a harder heroic.

Please stop assuming what I mean and read what I'm writing. I've never said that "heroics should be easy". I've said they can be hard but ONLY if people whe are less skilled/experienced have good enough alternative for character progression and aren't stuck because 5% of all sub base wants challenging 5man content.

I don't think most is a good adjective there.

Actually "most" is very good adjective if you care to understand the process of learning. Then it becomes quite obvious why MOST people don't learn things in a game that don't hit them in the face and why expecting from people to read on their class is where the learning process is failing. In TBC the basics required to play the game were much less than in Cata. That's why the difficulty jump in Cata failed so horribly as it assumed people will know their class. In TBC it wasn't assumed as most classes were broken!

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You are completely, utterly - 100% - wrong. In factual ways.

To assume that a player due to experience has a infinite skillcap and no need to learn/has no difficulties with any itteration or skill moment (i.e nothing in Wow ever will be hard) is a logical fallacy. Just by plain default.

And no, vanilla and TBC was not easy in it's own. I'd like to see you do Shattered Halls Heroic timed run pre-nerf without experience. Or any sunwell boss. Hell, even some Black Temple or Mount Hyjal bosses.

I would suspect that many of your remaining points are also wrong - based on that you are arguing poorly, with assumptions rooted in logical fallacies. I.e, things that are plain wrong and twisted/convoluted to your sense of reasoning.

I'm not assuming, I'm speaking from experience.

I am an experienced player who due to experience in game learns faster as most patterns quite fast started repeating themselves. I'm also the minority that reads and does the research before doing anything. WoW for me was never hard. It felt flawed at times as I was being limited by things like class design and certain abilities missing from my spec rather than my own ability to perform.

And as I observed random people I happened to play with during those 9 years I've noticed they do not act, learn and operate like myself.

If the game were to be suited to my needs there could be no "easy" content. I don't need 5man content at all because it is and always has been easy for me. I don't need LFR, Flex or Normal - Heroic is just fine for me. But I know I am the minority and suiting game to only my personal needs is dumb. I also know that I need the game to teach new players to play the game as since experienced players are naturally leaving the game I'd like new people to learn faster to my level so I have someone to play with (it is a multiplayer after all).

Also, as most people started playing in Vanilla or TBC and yet managed to somehow kill stuff proves quite obviously that it couldn't have been that hard for majority of players. WotLK didn't raise that difficulty cap much plus added more time accessible content. Cata tried to rise the difficulty by a lot and failed. Blizzard realized that but when they've reverted that difficulty change it was too late and harm was done and people who got stuck at the start of Cata left and never came back.

But please, be my guest and prove me wrong. Prove me wrong that majority of people are slow learners. Prove me wrong that masses that got stuck in early Cata didn't quit the game for that reason.

And one more thing. Stop treating this game as a single player - there is so much more to it than your personal capabilities. Most of you fail to understand that most people operate at very mediocore levels. And while offering various difficulties, ultimatly the game needs to catter to majority. Slower learners can be valuable players if they are given a chance and put on the right track. You cannot simply ban everyone who is below yourself as that quite fast would lead to hardly anyone hanging around with you.

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Have to agree with this, I've seen people playing since pre-wrath who struggle with normal mode raids on a personal level

And I've seen people pre Wrath playing plain wrong (bad talents, not using proper skills) clearing whole content... and then failing in Wrath when more class mechanics were added and changed.

[Raiju]

And I've seen people pre Wrath playing plain wrong (bad talents, not using proper skills) clearing whole content... and then failing in Wrath when more class mechanics were added and changed.

You misunderstand.

I've seen people playing since before wrath, who still to this day struggle with normal mode content of today. Experience has not helped them get over their skill-cap there. They are not able to functionally keep up with fights and never have.

[Lilija]

You misunderstand.

I've seen people playing since before wrath, who still to this day struggle with normal mode content of today. Experience has not helped them get over their skill-cap there. They are not able to functionally keep up with fights and never have.

Ah, then you are talking about the other 5% of WoW population - the opposite to those who are at the top - people immune to knowledge :P

[Raiju]

It's not really the knowledge, it's more coordination, awareness, etc. They struggle to keep track of whats going on in the game, they have basic knowledge of fights, but struggle with details.

[Pua]

You misunderstand.

I've seen people playing since before wrath, who still to this day struggle with normal mode content of today. Experience has not helped them get over their skill-cap there. They are not able to functionally keep up with fights and never have.

All Lilija is saying is that more experienced players tend to be better than less experienced ones. Clearly, there will be exceptions to this rule but, in general, that's the way it is.

The Stone Guard was a horrible entry level boss for new players who'd levelled up and found no challenge in heroic dungeons. For those who've been playing since before Cataclysm, it was pretty manageable because many had seen it before.

Think Attumen the Huntsman, Patchwerk or Anub'rekhan and compare them to Magmaw, Halfus or the Stone Guard.

The difference is massive, and newer players got smashed because they weren't ready for content the game hadn't prepared them for. More experienced players got through it with much more ease, particularly if they were playing with longer-term raiders.

[gurusotah]

LoL
Harder than MoP heroics, that is a relativ issue about difficulty level
Cata heroics were JOKE as difficulty compare with BC heroics
if the sentence was like that WoD heroics will be as difficult as BC heroics then i would give a shit about that
but harder than MoP heroics haha piss off please.
the game and instance runs became so dull and easy, i cant stand with that shit anymore tbh.
This is a kind of humiliation to give like a piece of crap as challange.
me or many of my guilds player have absolutely no faith or trust for WoD design
they raise the heroic difficulty haha /yawn