DW vs 2h, have we all been forgetting that 2hs have more stats or is it just me?

[Totaltotemic]

This is somewhat embarassing, but I only just discovered today that 2hs with equivalent ilvl to 2 1hs actually end up having 16.7% more primary stats (Agi and Stam) than the 1hs. The secondary stats end up evening out, but with how little this is ever mentioned anywhere I have to ask: have all of the analyses of various people who have been working on WW and BrM stuff actually taken into account the fact that a heroic Warforged 2/2 2h ends up giving about 500 more Agility than heroic Warforged 2/2 1hs?

I know the root of the 1h vs 2h debate has almost always been enchants (Way of the Monk is irrelevant as haste scales the attack speed after Way of the Monk so there's no devaluing of haste there at all), but at some point extra Agility starts to affect the total difference. Am I the only one that wasn't aware of this and I'm just being dumb, or is this something we actually need to figure out?

[Jocias]

My understanding was that it was more about Way of the Monk than enchants, but I have a h wf 2h and 2 h wf 1h weapons that I can beat on a dummy with for a while if that would help.

[Totaltotemic]

I wish dummy tests would be helpful but when we're talking 2-3% damage differences having weapons with different kinds of stats with different distributions that cascade into different levels of crit/haste/mastery/hit/exp all across gear via reforging kind of makes any real test inaccurate. The DW vs 2h discussion is one of those things that only the deepest analyses in Simcraft and hand theorycrafting can figure out. It's just too close to ever notice in the real world.

[openair]

from the brm sticky in this forum...

Dual Wielding or Two-Handers?

Either one works. No seriously, either one's perfectly viable. The only real difference you're going to feel is that while dual wielding you will have slightly higher DPS and your elusive brew will stack up at a smoother pace... however going with a 2hander that's a significant ilvl upgrade from your two 1handers will not be detrimental.

from the ww sticky...

It is honestly always a hard choice when the 2H has much higher stats and item level, but it really comes down to the fact that we scale with our weapon damage and dual wield gives us the benefit of double-proccing Dancing Steel (amongst other things). Early on, when RPPM trinkets scaled with weapon speed, we did see MAJOR benefit in 2H - but unfortunately, that did not go live, and so a very, very slight delta still exists between DW and 2H.

Note, however, that in current tier - with Heroic Thunderforged and several different item levels, it is not going to be uncommon for a 2H to outperform DW. That is the problem with having a tier in which weapons with a 19 item level difference can drop - it will complicate things for you.

The ppl writing these stickies do so with math done with bis slot equipment. Real bis equipment on their bis equipment lists included in those stickies. Not made up bis equipment with made up stats.

[Totaltotemic]

from the brm sticky in this forum...



from the ww sticky...


The ppl writing these stickies do so with math done with bis slot equipment. Real bis equipment on their bis equipment lists included in those stickies. Not made up bis equipment with made up stats.

Those are describing whether to take a 2h with higher ilvl and thus more weapon DPS and more stats. What I'm saying is that they have more stats even when they are the exact same item level. This doesn't seem to be something people have ever taken into account when calculating DW vs 2h and just kind of assumed that Dancing Steal made DW better. However, a significant enough amount of Agility would offset the extra Dancing Steel, but it's difficult to calculate because 2h gets 2x frequency, so the benefit from DW isn't exactly one entire Dancing Steel proc.

[openair]

They have taken it into account because they draw those conclusions from math done with real items, not fake.

[hagorran]

DW BRM is not smoother Elusive Brew Regen

[Jocias]

So, to distill the question, it's basically: Is 500 agility worth more than the extra procs of Dancing steel?

If that's the case, wouldn't it just be as easy as building a DW BiS list in Rawr, importing it into simcraft, running it. Then, creating a 2H weapon with the equivalent stat distribution and re-running?

[Bad Ashe]

the stats have always been higher for the 2h's because the weapon speed is slower.
the percentage goes away when the attacks per minute are brought into the equation, right?

[Totaltotemic]

So, to distill the question, it's basically: Is 500 agility worth more than the extra procs of Dancing steel?

If that's the case, wouldn't it just be as easy as building a DW BiS list in Rawr, importing it into simcraft, running it. Then, creating a 2H weapon with the equivalent stat distribution and re-running?

That's basically the question, just asking around if anyone bothered to do that ever or not. DW > 2h has been the gospel since long before I even started to work on WW theorycrafting and Simcraft wasn't started to be fixed up until Hina got to it post-5.4. I could run some stuff, but I'd like to know if I should expect something different or the same thing so I know whether to actually bother.

@BlahBlah, different speed is balanced by DW attacks having a higher AA miss rate and OH being 50% damage. DW vs 2h is balanced in the game's mechanics by design, it only changes when outside things are applied like enchants working differently.

[Jocias]

I'm not doing anything better at the moment. I can build a set in Rawr and do the simming if that would be useful.

[Totaltotemic]

Yeah I'm in a raid for the next 3 hours so that would be helpful. Ideally it would be a 2h with the same stats as a 1h except for the primary stats, like a crit/haste 2h vs 2 crit/haste 1hs but with both sets adjusted so the amount of crit/haste is proportional if you can hack a custom reforge in there or something.

[Jocias]

Yeah. I'll figure out the stat scaling. I'll just basically create a 2H Seismic Bore. I've never done it before, but simcraft should let me do that.

I forgot how slow Rawr is. This might take an hour or two.

[The Madgod]

DW BRM is not smoother Elusive Brew Regen

By it's very nature, yes, it is.

Faster attack speed + a lower generation per proc means the amount of EB stacks you generate within a period of time will be more frequent, but you will generate less stacks per proc.

Lower attack speed + a higher generation per proc means you get more bang for your buck, but your buck comes less frequently.

DW BRM isn't HIGHER EB gain, or at least if there is a difference, it's negligible.

That's basically the question, just asking around if anyone bothered to do that ever or not. DW > 2h has been the gospel since long before I even started to work on WW theorycrafting and Simcraft wasn't started to be fixed up until Hina got to it post-5.4. I could run some stuff, but I'd like to know if I should expect something different or the same thing so I know whether to actually bother.

I remember doing this once, back during t14, with some weapons from that tier. I think 2h came out on top stat-wise, but just barely.

[Totaltotemic]

I remember doing this once, back during t14, with some weapons from that tier. I think 2h came out on top stat-wise, but just barely.

Yeah I went back and looked at 502 weapons, the difference was only like 200 Agi, wouldn't have made a difference back then. Now of course we're dealing with 70 ilvls higher so it matters more.

[FayrenPickpocket]

Double dancing steel + 40% auto attack damage is why dual wielding is really, really good. For example, on thok tonight, my melee did 12847624 damage, and accounted for 17.9% of my damage over 300 seconds. So about 42825 of my dps came from auto attack. Had I been using a 2hander, I would have been at 30589. That's a 28.5% loss in damage from melee attacks, and would make melee only account for 12.79% of my damage done, or a 5.1% dps loss.

[Totaltotemic]

Double dancing steel + 40% auto attack damage is why dual wielding is really, really good. For example, on thok tonight, my melee did 12847624 damage, and accounted for 17.9% of my damage over 300 seconds. So about 42825 of my dps came from auto attack. Had I been using a 2hander, I would have been at 30589. That's a 28.5% loss in damage from melee attacks, and would make melee only account for 12.79% of my damage done, or a 5.1% dps loss.

You can't just ignore the fact that Way of the Monk gives 2h a 40% increased attack speed. This isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

[Jocias]

So, I just did the math, and the difference between 2H and DW for Agi is pretty low. Unless stats are reduced differently for gem slots between 1H and 2H weapons, the total agi for BiS DW is 30533 agi and for BiS 2H 30776 agi. That's an increase of 243 agi for equipping a 2H.

In either case, SimCraft is crashing when I try to sim anything right now. I'll upload the .simc text to pastebin here in a minute.

The overall stats are listed at the bottom of each.

WW DW
WW 2H

[Totaltotemic]

So, I just did the math, and the difference between 2H and DW for Agi is pretty low. Unless stats are reduced differently for gem slots between 1H and 2H weapons, the total agi for BiS DW is 30533 agi and for BiS 2H and 30776 agi for BiS 2H. That's an increase of 243 agi for equipping a 2H.

In either case, SimCraft is crashing when I try to sim anything right now. I'll upload the .simc text to pastebin here in a minute.

The sockets are taken out of the secondary stat budget, not the primary stat budget. Putting Agi gems in sockets helps even out the Agi difference but you end up creating a 300-400 secondary stat deficiency. Will post examples in ~30 mins.

[FayrenPickpocket]

Well, I accidentally deleted all the math I was just working on. So let's try this again.

2h (Using Heroic Warforged Halberd of Inner Shadows for math)

Weapon Speed bonuses for a 2h.
1.4 (Way of the monk) * 1.1 (melee attack speed buff) * 1.119 (Personal haste value) = 72% increase in attack speed.

Attack speed= Weapon Speed / ((haste%/100)+1)
ATK Spd= 3.6 / ((72%/100)+1)
ATK Spd = 2.09

Weapon Damage= ((28146 + 42221)/2) / 2.09 = 16834.21

Minimum Range = (((Minimum damage / Weapon Speed) + (Melee Attack Power / 14)) * (Weapon Speed))
Min Range= (((28146/3.6) + (53158/14))*3.6)
Min Range = (7818+3797)*3.6 = 41814

Maximum Range = (((Maximum damage / Weapon Speed) + (Melee Attack Power / 14)) * (Weapon Speed))
Max Range= (((42221/3.6)+(53158/14))*3.6)
Max Range= (11728+3797)*3.6= 55890

DPS = ((Minimum Range + Maximum Range) / 2) / Attack Speed
((41814+55890)/2)/2.09) = 23374 Auto Attack DPS With 2 Hander

If we factor in the extra 500 agility from the two hander, we get 1000 more attack power which can be added to the 53158, giving us 54158 attack power/14 =3868
Min Range now = 42066
Max Range now = 56145

DPs = (42328+56404)/2/2.09 =23495 Auto Attack DPS with 2 Hander+1000 agility

Dual Wielding (Using Heroic Warforged Softfoot's Last Resort)

Weapon Speed Bonuses
1.1*1.119= 23% increase in attack speed

ATK SpD = 2.6/ ((23%/100)+1)
ATK Spd = 2.11 attack speed.

Weapon Damage = ((13192 + 24501)/2)/2.11 + (.5(13192 + 24501)/2)/2.11
Weapon damage = (37693/2)/2.11 + (18846.5/2)/2.11
Weapon Damage = 18846.5/2.11 + 9423.25/2.11
Weapon Damage = 8932+4466 = 13398 Weapon Damage.

Min Range= ((13192/2.6) + (53158/14))*2.6 *1.5 (This value is for main hand + off hand)
Min Range= (5074+3797)*2.6 *1.5 = 34596

Max Range= ((24501/2.6)+(53158/14)) *2.6 * 1.5
Max Range= (9423+3797)* 2.6 *1.5 = 51558

DPS= ((34596+51558)/2)/2.11= 20415 * 1.4 (for way of the monk auto attack increase) = 28581 Auto Attack DPS*19% miss chance =23150 Realistic Auto Attack DPS

There. Happy. That doesn't factor in additional trinket procs, weapon procs, or the multiplication of the 40% time the 60% damage from TeB. Many theory crafters figured this out in 5.0. That's why we have the rule to dual wield unless the 2hander is 12 item levels greater.

-Elv@azuremyst