0.23% of Players Defeated Heroic Garrosh

[MoanaLisa]

I believe they said they wished they had been able to implement Flex before LFR - not that they wish they never put LFR in.

Indeed, that's exactly what they said. There's been not a hint of anyone saying they want Raid Finder to go away or anything remotely like that. To say they have is just dreaming.

The 'tourist mode' remark that GC made at Blizzcon was interesting but no one here has the faintest clue what that actually means. I'm assuming we'll learn soon enough since they've been sending signals since Blizzcon that Raid Finder will be changing.

There will always be a place in the game for random groups to run content. If anything, they made Raid Finder probably too difficult for a group of 25, most of whom don't raid, have no interest in raiding at any higher level and for the most part never raided before it was available. They may turn it into something more like a 25-man scenario and reduce the gear reward, all of which would be fine now that Flex is around.

Blizzard's experiment with 'raiding for all' as end game hasn't been really much of a success. We'll see what they do next.

EDIT: Our news summary for the systems panel for that bit:

Raid Finder is there to let you see the content and story, almost like a Tourist mode.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...sting-and-More

So no, they're not saying they wish it wasn't in the game.

[Normie]

I did in a later post. It was during on of the blizzard wow panels during blizzcon. I believe if was the general Q&A but could have been the RD panel, not quite sure. I also believe it was mentioned to some extent in a blogpost if my memory serves me right.

The question was also ask what feauture that was implemented in the game that the panel most regretted and wish they did not add. Their answer was LFD, but they said it was hard to go back and remove it now once it is implemented so that they have to live with it now.

You are not remembering what was said accurately.

Go find what was actually said.

[Keosen]

The problem isn't how raiding is exclusive. The fault lies in the skill of the community.

Skill <> time invested.
You can't wipe in one boss for ever, everyone when given enough time will eventually manage to kill the boss they struggling with.
Show me the raiding (progress) schedule of all these guilds who killed Garrosh HC so far.
25-30 hours per week is the common...

Of course some raiding teams are better than the others but they spent 3-5 times more playing the game.
HCs are as hard as it should be in my opinion, less harder and the top guilds would clear it in a week, harder than what it is now and only a handfull of guild would manage to kill it.

Now those who are dedicated and want to spent time will eventually get the kill and the sense of the accomplishment while the others will have a goal to reach as far as they can before the next tier, everyone is happy.

[tankbug]

I don't think Blizzard really cares about how many people can clear HC content. It's just an extra layer of difficulty for the elite, and not where the money is. If LFR didn't exist and it was 0.25% that had killed Garrosh on normal difficulty, they would be very concerned about the future and a lot of snowflakers in here would be very happy.

[Deleted]

Does it matter? Blizzard is making the game for the 7 million, not for the raiders. 7 million pay for the game, oh, well, 2.2 million, so their interest is too not spend to much time catering for 16.000, otherwise the other 7 million - 16.000 will get angry... That's why there is LFR

So Wow is only raiding? In those numbers, LFR and Flex are excluded btw.

[Normie]

There will always be a place in the game for random groups to run content. If anything, they made Raid Finder probably too difficult for a group of 25, most of whom don't raid, have no interest in raiding at any higher level and for the most part never raided before it was available. They may turn it into something more like a 25-man scenario and reduce the gear reward, all of which would be fine now that Flex is around.

Blizzard's experiment with 'raiding for all' as end game hasn't been really much of a success. We'll see what they do next.

Blizzard has been looking at the Flex numbers and discovering that approximately zero casual/"beer league" raiders went back to raiding in Flex. Two things did happen:

* Normal mode raiders went to Flex
* Heroic and normal mode raiders started using Flex to PuG for various reasons, mostly relating to outgearing/ease of clearing

Did it revive the "friends and family" days of raiding Karazhan? Not in the least. LFR is where all those people went and where, for now, they are staying, when they can stand it.

I don't know what GC meant by "tourist mode," but if his personality has an obvious weakness, it's an occasional disdain for people who don't play the game at a high level.

As far as the difficulty of LFR goes, people are doing fine in MSV and ToT (except around the easily griefable Megaera encounter). But about half of SoO is a horrible slog, if you can even get into it, if your group doesn't fall apart, et cetera. They should have tuned it down within a week or two and instead it continues to be just a huge creator of aggravation and annoyance.

[Deleted]

I stopped raiding mid Cata (and don't even play often ever since). Back then it was like this for our group: normal bosses are easy as hell, most go down in 2-4 pulls, except endbosses which require dozens of pulls. HC bosses start where normal endbosses left off, HC endbosses are again require much more effort. Has something changed regarding this difficulty curve?

That would hold true for the past tiers. This tier however was kinda odd. The first 8 heroic bosses are easier than a "hard" normal boss. They just fall over without much work. I guess that makes sense though, they want people to get into heroic modes, but in my opinion they overdid it a bit.

After the first 8 bosses there are 2 bosses that are a step up, but still rather easy. I would classify them as "entry level" heroic bosses. In Cata terms, you can say that boss 9 and boss 10 is like chimaeron / shannox level. After that comes the 11th boss which is the first boss that actually feels like an heroic mode. Only for boss 12 and boss 13 to be legit hard heroic modes and the last boss just being a stupidly easy fight with a stupidly high gear check, just a glorified patchwerk.
The difference between the 9th/10th boss to the 12th boss is like going from normal halfus to heroic cho'gall.

Overall, the difficulty curve is not so linear in the heroic content. The difficulty ramps up insanely after the first 10 bosses which means a lot of guilds get stuck on the last 4 bosses. Personally I think they should have made the first 10 bosses a bit more linearly harder to prepare for the last 4.

This can be seen quite clearly if you check the progression. From the first boss to the 8th boss, the completion rate is 44%. The completion rate from the 11th to the 12th boss alone is 40%. There is actually a higher completion rate for the first EIGHT bosses compared to the 12th boss alone.

The completion rate for the first 10 bosses is 24%, while the completion rate for the last four bosses is 6%. Considering that the guilds that are on the last bosses are supposed to be kinda "hardcore", that is quite insane to be honest and clearly demonstrates how badly this tier was designed in terms of progressive difficulty increase.

- - - Updated - - -

You are not remembering what was said accurately.

Go find what was actually said.

I am not gonna bother proving you wrong, as that never seems to work with you in any discussion. Feel free to look it up if you do not believe me.

- - - Updated - - -

So, should Blizzard do the American thing and just lower the passing grades so more people would graduate?
Please.

Haha, I used to have a teacher that did this in school. He would set the lowest passing score on tests according to whoever recieved the lowest score on a test. Nothing beats having a test where a score of 7/80 = success.

[brunnor]

They are catering to the 6.9%, not the .23%. Heroic raiding is for all heroic raiders. If you are in a heroic minded guild, your goal is the kill the final boss, not kill boss #3 and stop. All heroic bosses are created for all heroic raiders. Creating content for 6.9% of the game, makes a bit of sense to me.

[bufferunderrun]

those data only show that the 99.9% of these forum "wanna be pro" elitists that like to cry about how wow is easy, are talking about something they never experienced in the first place; i really hope there is a way to show who really played end game in vanilla and tbc to have another common lie exposed.

Myth buster ftw

[Deleted]

So no, they're not saying they wish it wasn't in the game.

They did say that given the knowledge they have now they would not have implemented LFR in the first place, rather gone with flex from the start, however they also said that they wont remove it currently. They never said that they would remove raid finder and I never claimed they did either.

I think the tourist mode remark speaks for itself. It just means that it is designed for you to go "sight seeing", seeing the raid and bosses without having to do any work for it.

[Normie]

They are catering to the 6.9%, not the .23%. Heroic raiding is for all heroic raiders. If you are in a heroic minded guild, your goal is the kill the final boss, not kill boss #3 and stop. All heroic bosses are created for all heroic raiders. Creating content for 6.9% of the game, makes a bit of sense to me.

If you asked me what the most boring possible way to play WoW was, I would probably say something like "spending 10 hours a week for 6 months to kill Garrosh."

[Pann]

You seem to have this idea that Heroic Mode raiding was designed with the intent that 99% of the population would be capable of doing it. That has never been the case; hence why we have Normal/Flex/Raid Finder.

No I don't but thanks for telling what I think.

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Yes. 100% of all development is spent on the last boss in the tier and nobody else kills a single boss in raids.

Also, ask yourself the question. Is heroic garrosh content for the players that have killed him or for the players that havent killed him yet? I killed Heroic Garrosh a bit over 2 months ago, I have not raided since then. Do I have any content left? No I do not. I am not saying that there should be any more content. But you need to consider that the end boss is not content for the 0.23% that killed him, rather the 99.77% that did not kill him.

The majority of people are simply not interested in killing heroic Garrosh.

[Deleted]

They are catering to the 6.9%, not the .23%. Heroic raiding is for all heroic raiders. If you are in a heroic minded guild, your goal is the kill the final boss, not kill boss #3 and stop. All heroic bosses are created for all heroic raiders. Creating content for 6.9% of the game, makes a bit of sense to me.

I see it the same way. Its not 0.23% of playerbase, that is interrested in killing HC bosses... rather ~7%. Only 0.23% are dedicated/skilled enough to put all the time in to get it done early. And consider holydays and the preparing weeks before christmast too. We lost 5 raids in december due to that. So we just started pulling Garrosh 25HC last week.

Its all a matter of time and we got plenty of that left til next addon. So all is fine and there will be 2-5% of the playerbase that pull and maybe down garrosh til then.

[Deleted]

The majority of people are simply not interested in killing heroic Garrosh.

Nope, but 7% are in heroic modes working their way towards him.

[Normie]

They did say that given the knowledge they have now they would not have implemented LFR in the first place

I would love for you to find a source for that.

I've just re-read the transcript of the Systems Panel and there nothing that resembles this statement.

[MoanaLisa]

They did say that given the knowledge they have now they would not have implemented LFR in the first place, rather gone with flex from the start, however they also said that they wont remove it currently. They never said that they would remove raid finder and I never claimed they did either.

I think the tourist mode remark speaks for itself. It just means that it is designed for you to go "sight seeing", seeing the raid and bosses without having to do any work for it.

I don't really think they said that either but couldn't find anything to support or dismiss it either way. If they had blatantly said that straight out, I'm fairly sure it would have been in the notes. Since it isn't, I suspect you misheard or heard what you want to hear.

I don't have an agenda about this myself. I'm fine with them doing whatever they like to Raid Finder to make it less of a problem for everyone: those that run it that don't want to and those that want to run it without it being a huge stressful deal.

As for "without having to do any work" I don't play WoW to work. I play to play. If you want to play with people who take it seriously enough to treat it like a second or part-time job that's your affair. I've been there, done that and don't need to bother with it again. I'm fond of saying that it's a big game: big enough to support a lot of different skill levels and play styles and I don't have a problem with anyone else who shows up to actually play. What you do is your affair.

The main point is that Raid Finder is useful to enable people to see the actual work that Blizzard has done and experience the story as participants. Why people have a problem with that is a mystery.

[Deleted]

I don't understand people saying "it's too little". What do you want Bliz to do: tune the HC difficulty down ? Well guess what, they already did it and it's call normal/flex/lfr!

Being surprise by this is like being surprise that only 0,0023% of people that go out for a walk on sunday succesfuly climb the Everest.

[Lethora]

It also depends on how much time you are putting into raiding. There are guilds which raid 20+ hours/week and there are some (like mine) which raid 10-11hrs/week. It's a huge difference when it comes to progress, y'know?
Still, I think most dedicated groups will kill Garrosh before WoD.

[Deleted]

We are the .2%

I think Blizzard did well, rather hard than easy tbh.

[Deleted]

It's honestly not right that .23% of the entire playerbase is able to see such a level of difficulty. blizzard caters TOO much to the elite raiders.

Pfffff..

I bet if people would've actually put more effort into the game than 1-2 hours of LFR a week, 5% of the playerbase would've been able to down Garrosh by now.

LFR being the endgame content post-cata was the biggest "flaw" PvE content ever suffered.