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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Zachsophone View Post
    I'm confused. Are you saying you only enjoyed content before because not everyone could do it and it was exclusive? Why does it matter?
    It has a lot to do with human nature, if every one and their mom had a Ferrari, it wouldn't be as coveted.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    It has a lot to do with human nature, if every one and their mom had a Ferrari, it wouldn't be as coveted.
    Yeah, but the difference is that a Ferrari costs ~$300K while a normal car costs ~$30K. That's why it's exclusive. Blizzard isn't running a self esteem workshop; they're running a business. Last time I checked access to raids cost $15 for heroic raider and LFR raider alike. If you'd like to pay $150+ per month they can make raids as exclusive as you like.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yeah, but the difference is that a Ferrari costs ~$300K while a normal car costs ~$30K. That's why it's exclusive. Blizzard isn't running a self esteem workshop; they're running a business. Last time I checked access to raids cost $15 for heroic raider and LFR raider alike. If you'd like to pay $150+ per month they can make raids as exclusive as you like.
    Actually blizzard can make raids as exclusive as they want, and you have to deal with it. So I will pay $15 a month and get that content and you can pay $15 a month and sit on mmo-c complaining that you don't instead of working towards seeing it It's only as exclusive as you let it be personally. Every WoW player controls what they can and cannot see.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    It has a lot to do with human nature, if every one and their mom had a Ferrari, it wouldn't be as coveted.
    True. But if getting that Ferrari was the only way you would be allowed to drive, people would get pissed off and demand that cheaper, more accessible cars be made because no matter how much people may want that Ferrari they know that for most of them it is completely out of reach. And if more accessible cars are not made available, those same people will say very loudly that they are going to refuse to continue paying the taxes that subsidize the existence of Ferraris and fund the building of roads to drive them on. If they follow through with that threat, no more roads are built (or very few) and those Ferrari owners are left with nothing to drive on.

    That's pretty much why LFR exists and the old model was not sustainable.
    I found I enjoyed the game significantly more when I stopped paying attention to all the people on the forums telling me how much I am supposed to hate it
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yeah, but the difference is that a Ferrari costs ~$300K while a normal car costs ~$30K. That's why it's exclusive. Blizzard isn't running a self esteem workshop; they're running a business. Last time I checked access to raids cost $15 for heroic raider and LFR raider alike. If you'd like to pay $150+ per month they can make raids as exclusive as you like.
    Again you are looking at it from a extremely simplistic and literal point of view. Humans want to be a special cookie, we try to stand out all the time. We want things that are rare and covet things that are out of our reach. In my example, if literally everyone had a Ferrari it wouldn't be cool or coveted to own a Ferrari. A lot of this comes down to human nature.

  6. #806
    Noone wants exclusive raids. What you people see as exclusive is just a side affect of true character progression. Meaning, getting somewhere new for the effort you put in.

    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Name the boss and I will tell you the difference. Almost every single boss has extra mechanics that make the fight more difficult. Hence it being a Heroic Boss. Some bosses have entirely new phases (Heroic Garrosh or Heroic Sha of Fear). Seriously, those that think heroic bosses are identical to lfr bosses with increased damage and health are completely insane and have no idea what they are talking about. It couldn't be further than the truth. It's a blanket statement made by players incapable of doing heroics for one reason or another.
    You're just missing the point, and I haven't seen anyone say they're exactly identical. The point is that they aren't so different to really motivate anyone outside of the people that just want a harder experience to do them. It's still the same setting, same story, and generally the same mechanics. I don't bother with heroic or even normal raiding anymore because takes any sense of seeing something new away.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    True. But if getting that Ferrari was the only way you would be allowed to drive, people would get pissed off and demand that cheaper, more accessible cars be made because no matter how much people may want that Ferrari they know that for most of them it is completely out of reach. And if more accessible cars are not made available, those same people will say very loudly that they are going to refuse to continue paying the taxes that subsidize the existence of Ferraris and fund the building of roads to drive them on. If they follow through with that threat, no more roads are built (or very few) and those Ferrari owners are left with nothing to drive on.
    My intention was not to use that to compare it in favor or against LFR, my point with that example is to show that humans covet things that are rare and exclusive.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Actually blizzard can make raids as exclusive as they want, and you have to deal with it. So I will pay $15 a month and get that content and you can pay $15 a month and sit on mmo-c complaining that you don't instead of working towards seeing it It's only as exclusive as you let it be personally. Every WoW player controls what they can and cannot see.
    Very not true. Personally, I do not have the ability (because of scheduling issues) to raid any other format beyond LFR. My schedule is far too erratic for me to maintain attendance for scheduled raids. It has nothing to do with desire, or skill. So my choices are do LFR, or quit playing. Take away LFR and all I am left with is to quit playing. Thus Blizzard loses a subscriber.

    This game came out 10 years ago. The people who built WoW up to 12 million subscribers now have other things taking up their time. Many of us cannot commit to playing as much as we might want to.
    I found I enjoyed the game significantly more when I stopped paying attention to all the people on the forums telling me how much I am supposed to hate it
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Noone wants exclusive raids. What you people see as exclusive is just a side affect of true character progression. Meaning, getting somewhere new for the effort you put in.



    You're just missing the point, and I haven't seen anyone say they're exactly identical. The point is that they aren't so different to really motivate anyone outside of the people that just want a harder experience to do them. It's still the same setting, same story, and generally the same mechanics. I don't bother with heroic or even normal raiding anymore because takes any sense of seeing something new away.
    Wrong...he specifically said the fights are exact except more damage and health. He is wrong. Plain and simple. You also get better gear. It is not the same thing. Its like saying driving on the interstate is the same as driving in the nascar circuit because all cars have tires and engines lol.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    Very not true. Personally, I do not have the ability (because of scheduling issues) to raid any other format beyond LFR. My schedule is far too erratic for me to maintain attendance for scheduled raids. It has nothing to do with desire, or skill. So my choices are do LFR, or quit playing. Take away LFR and all I am left with is to quit playing. Thus Blizzard loses a subscriber.

    This game came out 10 years ago. The people who built WoW up to 12 million subscribers now have other things taking up their time. Many of us cannot commit to playing as much as we might want to.
    I've done LFR, and I've done flex. If you can sit through half of the LFRs I see, you have time for flex.

    The main problem with LFR is that they are using end game raids as progression to end game raids. Rather than using heroic 5 mans or some other sort of system to THEN go see the raids. By the time you're ready for Normal/Heroic the excitement of the actual dungeon is gone.


    I said this before, but IMO if I were Blizzard this is what progression would be like:
    Ding 90(or 100)>do heroic 5 mans for Justice Points/loot with a LFR quality item dropped at the final boss.Use Justice points for mediocore gear>Make LFR into it's own dungeons that are unique to LFR, farm valor/LFR gear through that>Flex raids as the first time people enter end game raids>Normal>heroic.
    But of course Blizzard plays the 'not enough resources' card so we just have to accept it even though they rake in cash.

    What was once the role of heroic 5 mans has been given to LFR, but LFR is the same dungeons as normal/heroic so there is no excitement left to really motivate you to move on(unless you want to do it purely for the challenge/vanity).
    Last edited by Dormie; 2014-01-24 at 10:08 PM.

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    And the best way not to retain all of them is to give them an easy way to beat the game.
    By the way, I'd just like to point out to the world that WoW's subscriber decline had already been going on for at least half a year before LFR ever came out.

    But keep feebly trying to link the two, while the people with business degrees and actual hard numbers (that is to say, Blizzard) keep ignoring you.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    Very not true. Personally, I do not have the ability (because of scheduling issues) to raid any other format beyond LFR. My schedule is far too erratic for me to maintain attendance for scheduled raids. It has nothing to do with desire, or skill. So my choices are do LFR, or quit playing. Take away LFR and all I am left with is to quit playing. Thus Blizzard loses a subscriber.

    This game came out 10 years ago. The people who built WoW up to 12 million subscribers now have other things taking up their time. Many of us cannot commit to playing as much as we might want to.
    Once again, your personal schedule limits you. You control your schedule. Players make sacrifices all the time to see content they want. For some it is harder than others but that doesn't mean that its not possible. So it actually is true. Some people I've seen post here sleep for 4 hours some nights just to make time to raid. Its up to each individual whether the sacrifice is worth it for them. But in the end it is each persons decision to make it happen or to not make it happen.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Alayen View Post
    By the way, I'd just like to point out to the world that WoW's subscriber decline had already been going on for at least half a year before LFR ever came out.

    But keep feebly trying to link the two, while the people with business degrees and actual hard numbers (that is to say, Blizzard) keep ignoring you.
    lol, people say this but Bliz obviously doesn't know much better. There was problems with WoW before LFR came in, such as the jump from no raiding to the harder Normal raids they created.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Actually blizzard can make raids as exclusive as they want, and you have to deal with it. So I will pay $15 a month and get that content and you can pay $15 a month and sit on mmo-c complaining that you don't instead of working towards seeing it It's only as exclusive as you let it be personally. Every WoW player controls what they can and cannot see.
    I never suggested otherwise, but by that same token they can make raids as accessible as they want and you have to deal with it. They're going to do whatever they feel is going to net them the most profit. Right now they feel that making raids accessible to everyone is going to bring in more revenue so that's why they do it. If they thought there was money to be made in boosting your self esteem they would make raids less accessible to other players. From a business perspective, however, it makes more sense to provide content for lots of people for $15 a month than it does to provide content for a handful of people at $15 a month. My point was that in order to justify making content accessible to only 1/10 of the population they would have to jack up their prices ten-fold to break even. The problem is that the price change itself impacts demand for the product, so there is no guarantee that the 1/10 portion of the population that the raid was targeted at would even pay that much to maintain a sub so even that view is overly simplistic. The Ferrari example kind of disregarded that whole aspect of exclusivity. The concept is called supply and demand, and has been very influential in the development of the American economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Alayen View Post
    By the way, I'd just like to point out to the world that WoW's subscriber decline had already been going on for at least half a year before LFR ever came out. But keep trying to link the two, while the people with business degrees and actual hard numbers (that is to say, Blizzard) keep ignoring you.
    I have never directly said it was the only cause of WoW's decline, that would be a stupid thing to do. I am guessing you are assuming I am going that direction? There are several factors including age, mediocre expansion (Cataclysm) and increased competition that caused WoW's decline, but I am sure there are other factors also included. What my argument was is that LFR didn't stop WoW from declining. I am not making LFR the cause either way.



    LFR was introduced Nov '11 and yes it flatlined and was decreasing before that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alayen View Post
    But keep feebly trying to link the two, while the people with business degrees and actual hard numbers (that is to say, Blizzard) keep ignoring you.
    You are putting to much weight on a "business degree", anyone can get a business degree. It probably is one of the easiest degrees to get. They are not gods and if history is an indication they can make stupid decisions and can also be completely wrong.
    Last edited by Sharuko; 2014-01-24 at 10:17 PM.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Noone wants exclusive raids. What you people see as exclusive is just a side affect of true character progression. Meaning, getting somewhere new for the effort you put in.
    But what you are asking for IS exclusive raids. The difficulty is tied to accessibility. A randomly assembled group of people with (usually) no leadership, no efficient means of communication, and no investment in the success of the group as a whole is not capable of clearing raids on anything above maybe Flex difficulty (And I actually kinda doubt even that). Any solution to those issues makes the raids less accessible and closer to the traditional form raiding has taken.

    LFR wasn't about making the raids easier. It was about making them more accessible by allowing someone to find a group at any time on any day within a reasonable amount of time. The lower difficulty was necessary to make the primary goal of LFR actually work. If you raise the difficulty, the whole thing falls apart and we are back where we were prior to LFR's existence. Many people who are getting to at least see the content would now no longer be able to do so. Thus the more difficult content is not an incentive. If anything, it is a deterrent to continue playing because they will have a block of content,containing significant impact on the story behind the game, that is shut off from them completely. So why then should they continue to play once they get to the point (which is reached VERY quickly)? There is no reason to. So they quit.
    I found I enjoyed the game significantly more when I stopped paying attention to all the people on the forums telling me how much I am supposed to hate it
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    But what you are asking for IS exclusive raids. The difficulty is tied to accessibility. A randomly assembled group of people with (usually) no leadership, no efficient means of communication, and no investment in the success of the group as a whole is not capable of clearing raids on anything above maybe Flex difficulty (And I actually kinda doubt even that). Any solution to those issues makes the raids less accessible and closer to the traditional form raiding has taken.

    LFR wasn't about making the raids easier. It was about making them more accessible by allowing someone to find a group at any time on any day within a reasonable amount of time. The lower difficulty was necessary to make the primary goal of LFR actually work. If you raise the difficulty, the whole thing falls apart and we are back where we were prior to LFR's existence. Many people who are getting to at least see the content would now no longer be able to do so. Thus the more difficult content is not an incentive. If anything, it is a deterrent to continue playing because they will have a block of content,containing significant impact on the story behind the game, that is shut off from them completely. So why then should they continue to play once they get to the point (which is reached VERY quickly)? There is no reason to. So they quit.
    Removing LFR with flex still intact is not exclusive raids though. They are PLENTY puggable. The game needs to set a bar of moderate difficulty that players need to own up to. Otherwise it isn't players vs WoW, it's players vs themselves.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    Again you are looking at it from a extremely simplistic and literal point of view. Humans want to be a special cookie, we try to stand out all the time. We want things that are rare and covet things that are out of our reach. In my example, if literally everyone had a Ferrari it wouldn't be cool or coveted to own a Ferrari. A lot of this comes down to human nature.
    And any four year old kid who has read Dr. Seuss's story of the Sneetches knows where that leads. You want to be special and stand out, and Blizzard would be wise to take advantage of that as much as they can. However, they're not going to do it at the expense of their profits. You argue that their profits are declining because they don't make people feel special anymore, but Blizzard realizes that most people don't look to a video game to feel special; they look to a video game for a diversion from the rigors of day-to-day life. Your special feeling provides no value to Blizzard. The $12-$15 dollars that you fork over every month does. If making you feel special is going to retain your $12 while costing them nine other players' $12 they're still short $96 when all the math is done. They're going to do their best to make you feel special because that's what keeps you subbed, but they're not going to do it at other players' expense.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  19. #819
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    There's a few, go look it up yourself to watch videos, or even look at the dungeon journal and look for the moves labeled "Heroic Only", too many bosses to list each one.

    It does vary based on boss, it could be a simple change, or a few huge ones.
    I doubt very much the difference is as big as it was in Ulduar's hard modes.

    Seriously, those that think heroic bosses are identical to lfr bosses with increased damage and health are completely insane and have no idea what they are talking about. It couldn't be further than the truth.
    Those changes you applaud do not make the fight sufficiently different, like they did in Ulduar.

    First, in heroic, every single mechanic matters. Everyone has to do every mechanic correctly or you will most likely wipe. Second, there is usually more mechanics and/or mechanics that work differently. To say its just health and dmg output is a gross over simplification.
    Of course every mechanic must me done correctly - its damage is so much higher that it will result in death if you don't. Sure there are some extra abilities, but not nearly significant enough to warrant a visit after you've done LFR or Normal to death.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Once again, your personal schedule limits you. You control your schedule. Players make sacrifices all the time to see content they want. For some it is harder than others but that doesn't mean that its not possible. So it actually is true. Some people I've seen post here sleep for 4 hours some nights just to make time to raid. Its up to each individual whether the sacrifice is worth it for them. But in the end it is each persons decision to make it happen or to not make it happen.
    That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted on these forums.....

    My issue is not the amount of free time I have. I have plenty. More than enough to raid. I just never know when that is going to be. So how then can I raid outside of LFR when every other option available to me requires that I have a set, scheduled amount of time available, generally not less than 2 hours? The nature of my career prevents me from doing that. And I will not, nor would any rational person, quit my job just to raid. I would quit WoW first. Blizzard realizes this, which is why they put LFR in the game in the first place.
    I found I enjoyed the game significantly more when I stopped paying attention to all the people on the forums telling me how much I am supposed to hate it
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

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